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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat. Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat. Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I ju…

> I've known some amazingly productive old people. I learned from one of the best in the gamedev industry. He was my mentor, and basically a mini carmack. When I hear statements like this, I cannot fathom how people believe this myth that old people are inherently less able to kick your ass at programming. I'm increasingly old (and hope to live to be really old) but we should try to keep our personal self interests o…

We need a strong social net that works for everyone, not equal opportunity at work for old folks (or insert demographics here).

Disagree. The point of a social net is to catch those who fall, not those who dont.

I'd take this one step further though. Equal opportunity programs seem to be harmful in our industry. The moment we try to enforce a hiring quota, everyone else starts to feel resentful. That causes real difficulties in a team-based setting. I'm not sure whether those difficulties outweigh the good brought by the programs, but it's hard to argue that they're objectively good.

Rather than an equal opportunity program, it would be better to rid of our own mistaken idea that old people are less intelligent.

Personally, I'd expect older people to do better than younger people. I fear that we can't fix the human brain rotting(?) away if we deny it is happening.

I made no such argument. Again: The old people that populate our industry are the stellar outliers. They're the ones who are smart in spite of the brain rotting (such an endearing term we've chosen). Even if that's true in the general case, it doesn't matter that the average old person is less intelligent. Our industry isn't filled with average old people.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#32
As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things:

Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about your projects. This is the most important part for me. What projects have you done, what was your role, what did you do, what did you use, what was the result, and what are your proud of. Also, I hope you varied your work a bit, because when I read you worked 10 years on the same system, it tells me you didn't think enough out of the box and I'd worry about your skills outside of that system. Also, surely you did smaller projects in those 10 years than just saying you 'maintainted and implemented new features for system X'.

I don't care about your Delphi, BASIC, COBOL or Java 1.2 skills (looking at your CORBA). I do care about your Java 8, mobile, and recent webtechnology skills. You don't know what the technology behind a website is? Then it's a minus, as you've missed out on ten years of technological advancements in your field. I'm not saying you should be expert in web technologies or frameworks, but at least have a basic understanding about HTML5, CSS and Javascript, what they do and what they are used for. Like, the basics.

I care little about your soft skill trainings, they might have some value. I don't care about your framework trainings, I'd rather see you use them in your work experience. I do care about your Java (Programmer 2) certification, because you are working in a Java shop and as somebody who has done the certification I know the value of preparing for the certification, and I know you are dedicated for this.

I care about what libraries/frameworks you would use, and will ask about the reason for using one over the other. This gives me an idea that you can look outside of your comfort zone, be able to accept other ideas, know how to analyze functionalities of a framework, and know that you should understand a library's internals before using it because of the hype.

I care about your theoretical/general skills: Do you know how to structure your program, do you know about SOLID principles, do you know design patterns, etc. These give me an idea if you can write larger programs, that can be maintained.

I care about how you answer my questions, how you respond to be challenged on a point, how you will defend a point, how you will convince me to use a new library that I don't know about (which I actually do) and sell me it's good points. This is because I want to see you speak the same language of the team, and can communicate your opinion in a professional manner. Get irritated or super-defensive, you probably aren't a good fit for the team, as you'll have colleagues that challenge you as well, and you will just be irritated all day long.

All these give me an idea on how passionate you are about developing software. Not passionate as in 'go spend 70hrs a week here', but passionate as in seeing software development as your craft, your reputation, your skill.

In the end I care about three things: Can your do the work in a professional way (hard-skills), will you be able to work well with your colleagues (soft-skills), and will you be happy to work here (retention).

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#33
I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination.

Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their families and other hobbies. It’s well know that people tend to become more conservative with age, so this doesn’t really suprise me. None of them thought they were being discriminated against at all.

Moreover, my colleague worked with a 58 year old guy who started programming when he was 50+. He currently works for a super hot "big data" startup as a lead Ruby on Rails engineer, and from what I've heard, he's really, really good at his job (and very well paid).

Older developers of HN, what are your experiences?

Everyone else, did you ever witness a case where someone was discriminated based on their age?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#34
post #3

> "...Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg reportedly said that young people are more intelligent while speaking to a group of entrepreneurs " I would be fascinated to hear if his opinion changes once he is 40+ ...

They are, aren't they? Doesn't intelligence peak and then drop with age? However, I'm sure it's more than compensated for by experience.

It drops only by a couple of points, and you can lessen the drop with regular physical excercise. I'd say that experience and lifelong education overcompensates for it.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#35
At 32, this worries me. I’ve already begun to plan for my eventual exit from tech.

When friends nudge their kids in the direction of building skills or a career in tech, I try to find ways to let them know how I look at our industry - a somewhat lucrative place to spend the first 15 or so years out of college, but sadly not a place to build a sustainable, lifelong career.

I wish that weren’t the case, but it seems to be true. Our government needs to step up and hold companies who have a dramatically skewed employee age distribution accountable.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#36

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

I've seen people looking to switch from "good stable jobs" not given consideration while someone straight from college would be interviewed.

Seems to me that an experienced perl programmer would compare well to someone with some academic experience and light project work. I honestly don't understand why the perl programmers aren't offered at least entry level wages with opportunities for advancement and raises if things go well. Instead, I typically see them passed over and lots of focus on recruiting university students away from other employers.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#37
post #35

At 32, this worries me. I’ve already begun to plan for my eventual exit from tech. When friends nudge their kids in the direction of building skills or a career in tech, I try to find ways to let them know how I look at our industry - a somewhat lucrative place to spend the first 15 or so years out of college, but sadly not a place to build a sustainable, lifelong career. I wish that weren’t the case, but it seems to…

I've seen plenty of people working well past 40. Lots of them don't work for "tech" employers, though. They write software for defense contractors, banks, insurance companies, etc.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#38

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

>Older developers of HN, what are your experiences?

Over 40 here. The most difficult part is human interaction. Youngsters are obviously well behind their own hype and have their right to try. Mature folks like me take things with a grain of salt and acknowledge hard work is only a part of the picture, often not the most important. From a technical point of view, the headless chickens thing is also common but, again, youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#39
post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. When a candidate with the right skills for a job gets rejected it's reasonable to ask whether age discrimination was a factor. One counter argument that I would be willing to c…

This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills.

Not in my experience. It's all about whether a candidate can come in and learn quickly. The skills are nearly irrelevant.

Which makes sense. What are the chances that you're going to be versed in every technology a new company uses?

Also, the idea that old people need to have exact skills is harmful. Our industry changes so rapidly that the old people are the most likely to have resumes that don't reflect their potential. Nobody believes them when they say they can learn just as quickly as everyone else.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#40

I don't know how it would make sense for business, unless they're trying to replace you with somebody less experienced because it's cheaper. In that case, it doesn't sound like the kind of place I would want to work for anyway.

It doesn't make sense, but often people and businesses are concerned about it being awkward for someone to report to a manager younger than them. Rather than educate and reassure they prefer to avoid this altogether by not hiring older people. For many, there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure. With younger workers thi…

> ...there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure...

How is this not age discrimination? Or do people make the case that age discrimination makes business sense?

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