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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#111
post #104
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

Nobody is assuming you should pay an older person more because they are older, but because they are more experienced. Paying someone with 30 years experience more than someone fresh out of school isn't age discrimination. Find me a fresh out of school 20 year old with 30 years experience and I'll pay them more too.

The discrimination is disqualifying someone from jobs just because they are older. Maybe they understand that they're retraining in a new industry or tech stack and will have to take a salary decrease, at least initially. In that case, they're not given a (fair!) interview because people assume they'll want too much money.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#112
post #88

Not sure if it'll be a problem for the millenial generation, but I'm sure not going to wait to find out. My goal is to not need a job by 45. If by then I still have to "beg" businesses to employ me, I will have failed. That means either enough money in the bank + low enough expenses, having my own stream of income, or be good enough that I can do consulting for multiple businesses (and thus diversify my across employ…

Good luck doing that with kids and a mortgage.

It's absolutely possible and depends mostly on your savings rate / controlling your lifestyle expansion.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim...

I chose not to completely control lifestyle expansion, but still managed to get to a point where working would be optional by 45 (last year for me) even with a mortgage and two young kids.

If you take a typical SWE six-figure salary and spend all of it, it won't happen. If you take that same salary and save 35% of it, you face a lot less pressure from any possible age-discrimination bogeyman at 45.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#113
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a kid and mortgage, but saving 60% of household post-tax income. We do what we can to stay lean, and have been doing that for the past decade. That means some sacrifices (e.g. no car(s)), but it's worth it for the peace of mind. Most people on this site are highly paid software engineers. If you have one or even two of those salaries but live like the mean or even median family, you will be able to save quite a…

Something like living without car is very difficult to pull off in suburban UK, I can’t even begin to imagine how one could do it in places like US or Australia. We have one car and already it limits our opportunities and the ones of our children so much that we’ve been discussing getting another for years. I’m sure I could save more (we do eat out a bit), but nowhere near 60% of income. You must be making waaaay mor…

In fairness to you, the UK (and rest of EU) doesn't have the outrageous levels of pay for SWEs that coastal US seems to enjoy. (Starting salary for new college grad of 100K USD is far from unheard of here.)

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#114
post #45

I'm 35 and I'm not worried AT ALL that I will be discriminated after I am 40. I think in a way we're the golden tech generation, we screwed our elders by discriminating against them when the industry was in disruption and now we're screwing the younger generation like in any other mature industry. I'm saying "we" as in "my generation", I don't feel I personally took a big part in any of it.

I'm 'only' 28 and I worry constantly about this as 30 gets closer and closer. When you're the oldest developer you have to work much harder to justify still being employed, but not so hard that they start to worry about you jumping ship for 5-10k more.

The only people around my company that are around your age are the owners and the directors that report to them.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#115
I'm hitting another 0-year shortly, but I have few worries about my losing my job. The thing I worry about is not having shiny assignments to put on my resume. I haven't seen a shiny assignment in years. That's probably because my employer and I have unintentionally agreed upon my best fit.

What do I do? I clean up after the cowboys are gone. We start a new project that has bells and whistles and does nifty cool things, and the young guys come in and work it because it's shiny, and they gladly put in the hours. They ship version 1.0. They add the tech TLAs to their resumes. And then they leave. Often times they go on to new shiny projects. Often times they go to newer shinier companies. And they leave their software behind.

We all know that time-to-market is everything. And the cowboys deliver the product. It may not be the highest quality work, and it may not be the most maintainable bit of code. But the product shipped, and that's what mattered.

Then comes sustaining. Time to address the warts, and when you address the warts, you see that the code has a lot of symbol names like "a1" and "b2". Yes, I know fireable offenses in some coding shops. But it shipped!

And this is where I come in. I clean up what the cowboys left behind. Usually this happens when we start addressing issues after the stabilization period is over, or start adding features the customers asked for but never got since we had to get the product out the door.

What do I do? Give symbols meaningful domain-specific names. Refactor code to remove antipatterns, mostly the copy-paste pattern. I also apply our company's coding standards with which the cowboys didn't want to be bothered. I add unit tests to code that changes. I comment the code (though it's mostly self-documenting when I'm done). I replace ad-hoc functions with calls to standard libraries our company uses that the cowboys didn't bother to learn. I apply idioms and frameworks that our company uses to allow code to take advantage of cross-cutting functionality, such as automated logging. I make the code aware of the daylight-savings-time transition. I remove egregious pattern uses people put in to say they used a pattern.

I also try to not be the expert at my applications, since I don't want to be called at 3am to resolve issues. So I maintain notes on our wiki pages as to what it takes for the software to run, and a list of frequent issues that have more to do with environment and upstream issues than with the code. I've trained our Ops people and given them analysis tools such that it's been years since I've been called at night. I also maintain a list of lower-priority code issues that weren't worth addressing, but that could use work some time.

I don't mind the cowboys. I've had a couple of them compliment me on my refactoring since they had long-forgotten what their code did. I still have this dream of being one. But for now, this is what I tend to do.

My only concern is that one day we'll get a shiny CTO who'll figure out that it's better to outsource all the IT to save money (and to give his buddies where he came from the outsourcing business), and I'll be on the street, after training my replacements. How marketable are the above skills? "Hi, I can keep your software running and maintainable." In another five years I figure I'll have made my numbers and the only thing I'll have to worry about is another 2008.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#116
post #66

The best insurance against age is to find some domain, and excel at that. At 40, it's not so good if your top claim in CV is "I know C++ in an out". "I was part of a team delivering product X, Y and Z which produced this much revenue for our company and which provided this and this value to our clients. I'm experienced contributor in domain W, and am comfortable in providing value using technologies A and B." is much…

By specializing in a domain, you live and die by it. It usually happens anyways, but it isn't all upside.

Domain as in 'aerospace', 'construction', 'finance', 'computational geometry'... If any of those die software is kinda pointless anyway.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#117
I'll be 40 in a few years but I give zero fucks about age discrimination.

I've found that most people don't really care how old you are as long as you provide them value.

But I don't work at a corporation so I guess that puts me in a slightly different position. Instead I record and sell video courses that teach modern development practices. All of that started after I was 30.

I guess my point is there's plenty of ways to live a fulfilling life as a software developer without ever being put in a position to be discriminated by anything.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#118

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

>You don't know what the technology behind a website is? Then it's a minus, as you've missed out on ten years of technological advancements in your field. Huh, we hired a guy who worked on the JVM and the Java compiler. Not much web experience. Would he have been technical enough for you? You don't like COBOL it seems, but you do realize that web development and it's byzantine combination of random languages, documen…

Many people hate XML more than JSON, and I would agree with them. I hate both, and prefer yaml.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#119
post #45

I'm 35 and I'm not worried AT ALL that I will be discriminated after I am 40. I think in a way we're the golden tech generation, we screwed our elders by discriminating against them when the industry was in disruption and now we're screwing the younger generation like in any other mature industry. I'm saying "we" as in "my generation", I don't feel I personally took a big part in any of it.

I'm 'only' 28 and I worry constantly about this as 30 gets closer and closer. When you're the oldest developer you have to work much harder to justify still being employed, but not so hard that they start to worry about you jumping ship for 5-10k more. The only people around my company that are around your age are the owners and the directors that report to them.

yeah, you shouldn't worry that much, there are an awful lot of tech companies where the average age is higher.

And, when you're 30, you're a much better developer than when you're 20, definitely worth the price difference.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#120

Not sure if it'll be a problem for the millenial generation, but I'm sure not going to wait to find out. My goal is to not need a job by 45. If by then I still have to "beg" businesses to employ me, I will have failed. That means either enough money in the bank + low enough expenses, having my own stream of income, or be good enough that I can do consulting for multiple businesses (and thus diversify my across employ…

As a millenial, this is pretty much how I'm trying to live my life, just with a "I'm good" point at 35 instead of 45. By that age I hope to have a trailer and enough land for subsistence farming all paid off. Then any employment that I'm lucky enough to find in my old age will be extra income instead of something I have to find to survive.
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