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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#61

Post by humanrebar »

nomercy400 wrote: post #32

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

> ...will you be happy to work here (retention)...

Why not let the candidate filter for this? Make it clear that you'd like them to stick around for X years or longer. Set up (communicated up front) bonuses, raises, clawbacks, etc. to make sure retention concerns are addressed.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#62

Post by troels »

Article draws a lot of conclusions based of averages and statistics that may as well be correlations as causes.

The industry is expanding rapidly. 20 years ago we were a lot fewer people. Even if we had perfect retention, the +40yo's will comprise a much smaller part of the workforce, than in an industry with less growth.

It's also not very surprising that older workers are more experienced, limiting the potential positions. But I suppose there could be an issue if you are older than average yet have mediocre skills.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#63

Post by sotojuan »

donatj wrote: post #17
code4tee wrote: post #15

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

It’s also family and responsibility. When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. Now that I’m married, I have more important things to do and my company gets much less free labor.

> When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time.

I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had plenty of reasons to leave after 8 hours.

Again, everyone lives life differently but I can't imagine having no reason to leave work, at any age.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#64

Post by [deleted] »

andai wrote: post #43
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat. Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat. Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I ju…

I must be missing the point, but isn't programming literally cognitive performance? As you age, your speed and ability to learn new things gradually decline ("fluid intelligence"), but what you've already learned and mastered ("crystallized intelligence"), can remain very strong until the end :) But have heart! Many people have demonstrated that complex skills (playing musical instruments, and even reading and writin…

[deleted]

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#65

Post by FabHK »

nomercy400 wrote: post #32

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

> at least have a basic understanding about HTML5, CSS and Javascript

I get that you're referring to the current job market for most Silicon Valley programmers, and are well aware and mentioned more theoretical CS stuff, so the following rant is not directed at you, but at the ignorant buffoons one sometimes encounters in this space:

I find this notion so cute that programming is front-end or back-end, or maybe even both, i.e. full-stack. Reminds me of the scene in the Blues Brothers, where the eponymous heroes enter a bar for a gig and ask the proprietor what kind of music they play there, and he cheerfully answers: "Oh, we have both! Country and Western!"

There was actually (important) programming prior to the WWW, even prior to the internet. A lot of programming solves important problems, particularly in the business world, but has nothing to do with the interwebs.

Of the magisterial 5 volumes (4000+ pages) of Knuth's The Art of [wait for it...:] Computer Programming, estimated to be completed by 2025, I believe approximately 0 are concerned with web frameworks.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#66

Post by fsloth »

The best insurance against age is to find some domain, and excel at that. At 40, it's not so good if your top claim in CV is "I know C++ in an out".

"I was part of a team delivering product X, Y and Z which produced this much revenue for our company and which provided this and this value to our clients. I'm experienced contributor in domain W, and am comfortable in providing value using technologies A and B." is much better.

That is, in corporate-ese, where it's all about value and revenue. Learn to explain your value, and forge a career that you can explain in terms of value. As an engineer you create value, but no one else is going to help you capture slices of that value financially - you need to do it yourself. It's not 'selling out', it's about being smart with your finances. Your skills are an asset, and if you don't know how to capture value from your output someone else will.

At 37, a software engineer, I'm pretty sure my career is more or less secure. I do things which I find interesting, but I make sure as well that I can explain my contributions in economic terms, should the need arise to find new employment. I'm not very wealthy, but neither do I need to stress out about money.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#67

Post by intellectronica »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #59
intellectronica wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your experience has been, but mine (more than 20 years of working in several jobs, doing quite a lot of hiring myself) is that there are two main tracks: 1. hiring promising interns and graduates - no relevant skills but the hope is that they're so smart they'll be able to learn quickly 2. hiring people with very relevant skills - either they've already done the exact same thing at another company o…

I'd like to posit that the reason you've seen more of the latter is because you've hired for more of the latter. I assure you, if you were to look for well-rounded, motivated developers that didn't have the immediate skills you need, you'd get the same work done. Usually more effectively, since the people who don't have the skills usually feel they have something to prove. Their work turns out better. Unfortunately,…

I don't think that I'm inherently biased against promising candidates with no skills. Heck, I used to be one myself. Perhaps it's just that in the fields and company types I've worked at most (startups) that's not usually what you look for. The promising recent-graduate scenario is much more common in big corporations where people plan for long, linear careers. In the startup world the average time for someone to be at the company is 2~3 years, and the roles usually get filled only when there's a burning need to get the job done right now. So it could be that I'm not aware of what the correct proportions between the different tracks are.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#68

Post by kitd »

oldboyFX wrote: post #33

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their fam…

I'm over 50 and coding in Node & Java, + related modern technologies. I am very happy where I am, reasonably well paid, and wouldn't want to move.

If circumstances change however, and I am forced to move for some reason, I would worry about landing something equivalent. I have already seen reluctance from recruiters about placing me.

I think I would probably move into contracting. I feel it's a more honest way of earning a living in the software dev world atm.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#69

Post by humanrebar »

intellectronica wrote: post #20
kayoone wrote: post #14

I feel this might change when more of the current young generation of engineers are getting older since there just weren't as many tech workers 20 years ago, so it's still relatively rare to see 50 year old developers. Besides there are many places outside of Silicon Valley or the US were experienced engineers are very welcome.

I agree. My experience has been that ageist views (just like sexism, racism, homophobia, etc) are more often expressed by people of previous generations and that millennials are actually more flexible and open to the idea that they would work with someone older (or of another gender, different skin colour, etc).

From that perspective I'm mostly hopeful, but I find less tolerance in millennials in other ways. There seems to be less willingness or ability to put political or ideological differences aside when it's appropriate. Maybe in a more long-tail world, there's less practice in compartmentalizing and tolerance (i.e., putting up with things you don't like).

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#70

Post by FabHK »

throw2016 wrote: post #24

Something for students to think about, in most other careers you study for, experience is valued and you usually end up being respected and highly paid, think management, doctors, civil engineers etc. In tech it works the other way and you will be insignificant by 40.

Not sure why this is down voted. It is an important consideration, unless you don't plan to live a long and meaningful life.
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