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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#51

Post by eric_h »

humanrebar wrote: post #40
intellectronica wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make sense, but often people and businesses are concerned about it being awkward for someone to report to a manager younger than them. Rather than educate and reassure they prefer to avoid this altogether by not hiring older people. For many, there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure. With younger workers thi…

> ...there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure... How is this not age discrimination? Or do people make the case that age discrimination makes business sense?

Age discrimination can also be salary discrimination. People with more experience rightfully require more in salary.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#52

Post by binaryapparatus »

code4tee wrote: post #15

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

This is VERY good analysis, everything else is padding to validate why 40 year old are not good fits.

It is puzzling that most business owners prefer to save their imagined superior position than to get the job done.

Sure I have seen ton of problems (and solved most of them) in 25+ years of carrier and I can be of great help in any startup. My caring for the company and input should be welcomed, not seen as threat.

It seems that most business owners are there because they need to be worshiped, not because they want to run successful business.

Maybe I am too old to understand that new logic.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#53

Post by sillysaurus3 »

andai wrote: post #43
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat. Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat. Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I ju…

I must be missing the point, but isn't programming literally cognitive performance? As you age, your speed and ability to learn new things gradually decline ("fluid intelligence"), but what you've already learned and mastered ("crystallized intelligence"), can remain very strong until the end :) But have heart! Many people have demonstrated that complex skills (playing musical instruments, and even reading and writin…

This isn't responsive to my comment. One helpful thing to do is to paste a quote you disagree with or want to ask about.

I think you're asking "Since programming is cognitive performance, is it reasonable to discriminate against those who can't do the work?"

My answer would be yes, if they can't do the work. But out of all the old people I've worked with, only one was a detriment to the team. How many of your coworkers were? How many were old?

The problem with discrimination is that it's easy to believe. People want to believe it. That's why it's easy to say something glib like "don't be afraid, you'll still be able to learn complex skills." That seems rather like saying don't worry, you'll still be able to be a person, since people learn complex skills.

Here's a riddle: How old do you think Satoshi was? He was writing oldschool C++ in 2008. That means he probably learned his trade in the 90's.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#54

Post by yodsanklai »

nomercy400 wrote: post #32

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

> Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more.

I tend to disagree. Not only a lot of five years old technology is still relevant today, but someone that showed great skills 5/10 years ago has still great potential today.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#55

Post by cjsuk »

code4tee wrote: post #15

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

Exactly this.

I’ve always been the “I’m outta here” guy. Never been wrong. I actually worked for a startup a number of years ago and quit after two hours.

A big chunk of the startup industry is preying on the gullible.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#56

Post by alkonaut »

nomercy400 wrote: post #32

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

I agree with most of this but lots of people will go a whole career without massive changes. I do desktop dev and the tech is not very far from where it was when I joined the project 14 years ago. I still change files I changed in 2003.

If we found a good developer it wouldn't really matter much whether their skills was from 2007 or 2016.

It's not "tech" or "programming" that evolves quickly, it's just a few specific domains (web, mobile, ...).

Lots of others (desktop, embedded, ...) don't have that kind of churn at all.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#57

Post by intellectronica »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #39
intellectronica wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. When a candidate with the right skills for a job gets rejected it's reasonable to ask whether age discrimination was a factor. One counter argument that I would be willing to c…

This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. Not in my experience. It's all about whether a candidate can come in and learn quickly. The skills are nearly irrelevant. Which makes sense. What are the chances that you're go…

I'm not sure what your experience has been, but mine (more than 20 years of working in several jobs, doing quite a lot of hiring myself) is that there are two main tracks:

1. hiring promising interns and graduates - no relevant skills but the hope is that they're so smart they'll be able to learn quickly

2. hiring people with very relevant skills - either they've already done the exact same thing at another company or they've done something adjacent and quite similar and can probably handle the switch.

The 2nd track is the bigger one by a wide margin, for the simple fact that people are only 20-something-recent-graduates once in their life time, but tend to move to new jobs several times during their career.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#58

Post by humanrebar »

eric_h wrote: post #51
humanrebar wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure... How is this not age discrimination? Or do people make the case that age discrimination makes business sense?

Age discrimination can also be salary discrimination. People with more experience rightfully require more in salary.

If employers make it clear what they are willing to pay (like in every other industry), people not willing to work for that will turn down the job.

I don't see a lot of "well, we have can offer you $X and let you prove yourself or see if something bigger opens up".

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#59

Post by sillysaurus3 »

intellectronica wrote: post #57
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is kind of pointless. Hiring for almost all tech jobs is based neither on some kind of "crystallized intelligence" nor on a hypothetical cognitive potential. Rather, jobs are usually matched with people who have the right skills. Not in my experience. It's all about whether a candidate can come in and learn quickly. The skills are nearly irrelevant. Which makes sense. What are the chances that you're go…

I'm not sure what your experience has been, but mine (more than 20 years of working in several jobs, doing quite a lot of hiring myself) is that there are two main tracks: 1. hiring promising interns and graduates - no relevant skills but the hope is that they're so smart they'll be able to learn quickly 2. hiring people with very relevant skills - either they've already done the exact same thing at another company o…

I'd like to posit that the reason you've seen more of the latter is because you've hired for more of the latter. I assure you, if you were to look for well-rounded, motivated developers that didn't have the immediate skills you need, you'd get the same work done. Usually more effectively, since the people who don't have the skills usually feel they have something to prove. Their work turns out better.

Unfortunately, there's not really any way to prove this. I wish there were, since it'd be quite nice to demonstrate it. All I can do is say what I've seen.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#60

Post by intellectronica »

eric_h wrote: post #51
humanrebar wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...there is also a perception that for someone to not have climbed the corporate ladder by the time they reach their 40s is a signal of failure... How is this not age discrimination? Or do people make the case that age discrimination makes business sense?

Age discrimination can also be salary discrimination. People with more experience rightfully require more in salary.

This is a view that actually sometimes prevents older people from managing it in market. Because of how fast technology moves, much of your experience from 10+ years ago isn't very relevant today, so if you expect a higher salary because of it you will be disappointed. It's important to be realistic and accept that if you've been working since your early 20s, you accumulate experience that might result in a higher salary, but only until you reach your late 30s. At that point you just compete in a market with other experienced people and your value (based on experience) doesn't increase much. You can still increase your value to an employer by acquiring a skill that is in high demand, but you're not more qualified than someone less experienced who has that skill.
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