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Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#111

Post by notspanishflu »

ryanlol wrote: post #103
notspanishflu wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean voting for independence, not having an opinion, obviously.

As jayniz says, please find the part of the constitution that outlaws voting for independence. (As opposed to organizing such a vote.)

I replied to jayniz, maybe you didn't see it.

It's in the article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution:

> La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado.

(The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate the powers of the State.)

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#112

Post by JaumeGreen »

yellowapple wrote: post #68

It's almost like Spain wants Catalonia to secede.

Look at the electoral results. PP, the current governing party in Spain, doesn't get good results in Catalonia.

Its main opponents, PSOE, does get decent results there, as does the alternative, PODEMOS.

So they have absolutely nothing to lose, politically speaking, losing us.

Not only that, but they have used, and still use, Catalonia as a ghost whom they fight, in order to gain votes in the rest of Spain.

And lastly, there are active cases against them by justice, all this is casting a smokescreen so people won't notice if they are declared guilty,or when they pardon their friends.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#113

Post by syshum »

notspanishflu wrote: post #89
syshum wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>and to the rule of law. I have always found it fascinating how strongly people believe "the rule of law" to be the ethical and correct position. To uphold the rule of law no matter what. That the rule of law itself if the goal. No matter what those laws are, no matter if those laws are unethical, immoral, unjust. The rule of law itself is the goal. Not a moral society, not a just society, not a ethical society, but…

Again, we're talking about the rule of law in democratic societies, not totalitarian ones. I don't know the source of your fascination if you don't understand that.

You believe no atrocities have ever been legal under a democratic society?

Really? I suggest you study more history if you believe that

Along with the rule of law I am fascinated by the difference people give to "democratic" society, as if that is the best, or some how perfect

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#114

Post by cnlevy »

craftyguy wrote: post #37
JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), So it'll be a massacre? I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.

Rajoy is not Assad. He knows there are more effective methods than just shooting at demonstrators

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#115

Post by ryanlol »

notspanishflu wrote: post #111
ryanlol wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As jayniz says, please find the part of the constitution that outlaws voting for independence. (As opposed to organizing such a vote.)

I replied to jayniz, maybe you didn't see it. It's in the article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution: > La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado. (The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate the powers of the State.)

That certainly doesn't seem to outlaw people casting votes for independence.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#116

Post by kaffee »

notspanishflu wrote: post #106
JaumeGreen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one under 57 has voted on this constitution. It should be modernised.

So every generation has to vote a new constitution?

Yes.

Thomas Jefferson said something along those lines. I think every generation might be a little extreme. Every other generation, certainly.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#117

Post by ryanlol »

notspanishflu wrote: post #105
jayniz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When shooting peaceful civilians with (illegal) rubber ammunition and kicking them in the face, for example.

Source for that?

https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632 https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914408451870265344

https://twitter.com/LordRennard/status/914434884990652421 Here's one of the international observers verifying too

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#118

Post by ryanlol »

notspanishflu wrote: post #110
ryanlol wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These articles simply don't seem that relevant. Of course there's been a bunch of fake news on both sides. There was obviously a plenty of very real violence by GC, anyone watching the live streams saw this for themselves. And a few days ago el pais fired a bunch of folks for having the wrong opinions on Catalonia, so I'm not sure if they're the best source.

Can you point out any source about fake news from anti-secessionists?

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/26/inenglish/1506413477_99...

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/25/inenglish/1506323273_06...

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/20/aixo_va_de_d...

El Pais & Co. are heavily pushing this lie that there's somehow a very significant amount of "fake news" on the other side.

I believe that they are purposefully overstating the significance of the "fake news" on the pro-independence side, and are simply trying to use the slightest indication of such to discredit the pro-independence side as a whole.

Where their theory really falls apart the most is the fact that all the "fake news" they speak of are in English. It feels fundamentally strange that "fake news" on small English language blogs would significantly affect the political sentiments in Catalonia.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#119

Post by justin66 »

scalesolved wrote: post #99
farresito wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because sadly they don't let us have a referendum.

Oh I know you're not allowed a referendum, you should be though. What I was referring to was public opinion polls, I've never seen one conducted that resulted in 50% or higher in favour of full independence.

I know what you mean, but I am pretty sure that you're going to see those numbers go higher. It looks like some of the non-independence options that a person might have preferred in those polls are being explicitly taken off the table by the Spanish government.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#120

Post by baxtr »

icebraining wrote: post #49
baxtr wrote: post #15

I’ve been to Barcelona quite often. People are nice and friendly. One time though when I was out eating dinner with a Spanish friend from Madrid something strange happened: the waiter told her she could not order in Spanish, she needed to speak Catalan, which was totally weird since we ordered in Spanish right before she ordered. But our Spanish was of course quite bad with a foreign accent, he was ok with that. We t…

Which problem is independence solving? Have you looked for their arguments, or are your questions rhetorical? Saying this is about "the details of our passports" is a bit disrespectful. Being part of Spain is about much more than that - as I think both sides would agree. And I don't see why the separation of countries would prevent the union of the continent.

I did not intend to be disrespectful in any way. I am - as I wrote - judging this with my limited knowledge of the matter, which is probably more or less on the same level of other Europeans watching things unfold right now. Not more, not less.

Thus, no, my question was absolutely not rhetorical. Happy to hear which problem their trying to solve.

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