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Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#91

Post by icebraining »

notspanishflu wrote: post #87
pjc50 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There won't be a civil war It's increasingly clear that the only two possible outcomes are either abandoning the idea altogether (possibly with an overall reduction in autonomy or proscription of the pro-independence parties); or violence. You can see even in this thread that nobody in the rest of Spain is even going to consider the possibility of peaceful secession. It's going to end up like 70s Belfast if people…

No, the secessionists movement is deeply fueled with public funds. Now that Spanish government is going to control that, you can expect way less secessionists support.

How much would you bet on that?

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#92

Post by notspanishflu »

jayniz wrote: post #76
notspanishflu wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence... Except that statement is completely false.

Until this comment I thought you're serious!

I've posted this already but it seems you didn't read it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/19...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo...

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/02/inenglish/1506943013_99...

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#93

Post by farresito »

syshum wrote: post #77
notspanishflu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European Union leaders ain't turning a blind eye, they have showed their express support to the Spanish government, and to the rule of law.

>>and to the rule of law. I have always found it fascinating how strongly people believe "the rule of law" to be the ethical and correct position. To uphold the rule of law no matter what. That the rule of law itself if the goal. No matter what those laws are, no matter if those laws are unethical, immoral, unjust. The rule of law itself is the goal. Not a moral society, not a just society, not a ethical society, but…

That's the argument that the Spanish govt. gives all the time, so it's only normal for them to use this argument when trying to defend the govt. position to attack the Catalan people when trying to vote or when trying to justify taking control of the Catalan administration, some Catalan public TV channels, etc.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#94

Post by notspanishflu »

farresito wrote: post #42
scalesolved wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen a poll that lists support for full independence at 50% or higher, could you please provide a link?

No, because sadly they don't let us have a referendum.

Then stop pulling numbers from your ass. Thank you.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#95

Post by icebraining »

JaumeGreen wrote: post #84
notspanishflu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution states: > La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado. (The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate the powers of the State.)

No one under 57 has voted on this constitution. It should be modernised.

Do you think it would matter? I don't think most of the country supports the Catalonian independence, so it would probably remain as-is on that issue.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#96

Post by JaumeGreen »

notspanishflu wrote: post #35
JaumeGreen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which restaurant? Did you raise a complain? Sorry but these stories ring untrue, given that Barcelona is both a huge touristic destination and most servers speaking Spanish as a rule.

Barcelona's local government has been pretty aggressive against tourism lately. Edit: Ok, is impossible to have a conversation when secessionists are downvoting every comment. Fine. I prefer to post arguments, and sources. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/talktojazeera/2017/04/ba... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11643... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/01/barcelona-anti...

You are partly right.

Barcelona's major wants to make tourism more manageable because it is considered that too many tourists kill the spirit of the city, increase rent for the citizens too much and, depending on their upbringing, bring fights and low quality tourism to the city.

There's also a civil movement against tourism, specially AirBnB, that has made some actions.

But that movement is separate from the independence movement. There are people of all factions in that movement, and it's quite smaller than the independence one.

The partly is that, at least on the other times this topic has come to hacker news, the brigading was from unionists.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#97

Post by rayiner »

ghaff wrote: post #56
skinnymuch wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry maybe it's going above my head. Is this sarcasm or there's some context?

I suspect he’s just saying that if California were to hold a binding referendum to secede, he doesn’t think the Federal government would send in troops to arrest the governor and take over California. I tend to agree although, at this point it’s sufficiently a hypothetical that you would need to know something of the circumstances that made it not a hypothetical to have a good opinion.

Yes, and I think Congress would vote to let California secede.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#98

Post by notspanishflu »

ryanlol wrote: post #48
notspanishflu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is. It is specifically forbidden in the Spanish Constitution. The sovereignty of Spain resides in all Spaniards.

Even the Spanish government does not agree with you. Few individuals such as Puidgemont may very well have violated the law, but supporting them simply isn't against the law.

I mean voting for independence, not having an opinion, obviously.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#99

Post by scalesolved »

farresito wrote: post #42
scalesolved wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen a poll that lists support for full independence at 50% or higher, could you please provide a link?

No, because sadly they don't let us have a referendum.

Oh I know you're not allowed a referendum, you should be though.

What I was referring to was public opinion polls, I've never seen one conducted that resulted in 50% or higher in favour of full independence.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#100

Post by icebraining »

mertd wrote: post #36
tqkxzugoaupvwqr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Let them fork, iterate and improve. They have a strong identity and economy, so they must be doing something right. Maybe being tied to a monolith even hinders their progress? (Just ideas for thought.)

Sometimes parts are weaker than the whole. The strong economy is possibly part due to investments made with the assumption that Catalonia would be part of Spain for the foreseeable future. Would London have been the de-facto financial hub of Europe, if people knew Brexit was coming?

I'd bet you London will keep being the financial hub of Europe long after Brexit.
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