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Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#71

Post by syshum »

pipio21 wrote: post #55

Given that "Catalunia leader" has dissolved the Parlament (Catalunia local congress) and declared independence(but saying that he suspended it), it is only logical what the Government has to do. The central Government is not escalating anything, on the contrary, it has been extremely weak. Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own l…

>>Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act.

We have a strong Federalist Society and I think it would take much longer than 5 mins to act.

While the US Federal Government has gain alot of power after the last 100 years it is still not the Top Dogs, Under the US Constitution the State governments can amend and/or abolish the Federal Government if they so choose.

The US Constitution is entirely about limiting the power and scope of the US Federal Government, a fact that seems to be lost both in international understanding of the US, and sadly domestically as well since we have more and more people thinking the Constitution is about "Giving people rights" or outlining what an individual can do, instead of its original and true purpose of defining what the government is allowed to do

Prime example of this is National Speed Limits, there is no way for the US Federal Government to demand a speed limit so when they wanted to establish said limit of 65, they had to do it by bribes and extortion they tied federal funding for roads to the passage of state laws establishing a 65 speed limit, states that did not pass such a law would lose billions in federal money

So no I do not believe the reaction would be as you think it would be here in the States

A more modern and pressing example is the ongoing conflict between several states and the US Federal Government over Marijuana where multiple states have now openly defied the federal laws on prohibition of this plant.

And on Immigration where they openly resist and obstruct enforcement of Federal Immigration Law.

No in the US the State government are regularly in opposition to the Federal Government

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#72

Post by notspanishflu »

ardit33 wrote: post #67
notspanishflu wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spanish sovereignty resides in all Spaniards, not just a part of them. It is in the Spanish Constitution. If secessionists lose an election, they'll keep asking for another, and another.

Lol, no, it resides on the folks that live on those states. Constitutions change. (the last change was in 78, right?). Fromer Yougoslavia broke off, as the separate states wanted their own countries. Somewhere was peaceful (Slovenia), and very bloody, (the rest of the states). They are much much better off by themselves right now. Things change, and if Catalonia wants their independence they should.

The article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution states:

> La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado.

(The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate the powers of the State.)

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#73

Post by farresito »

notspanishflu wrote: post #52
farresito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't intervene, as it is 'domestic issues'. They are more than happy to turn a blind eye as long as there's nothing physical, since a hypothetical independence would cause instability in the EU and might give the pro-Independence movement more legitimacy.

The European Union leaders ain't turning a blind eye, they have showed their express support to the Spanish government, and to the rule of law.

Make an effort to read the messages carefully, please. The parent comment said `what level of brutality the EU is willing to accept before intervening`, and by brutality I understand from the Spanish govt. side, and my answer was that they won't try to condemn this kind of brutality unless it goes physical. I never said anything about the EU not supporting Spanish's position; it makes plenty of sense, since it's in their interest to avoid Catalonia's independence.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#74

Post by pipio21 »

JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

The sentiment in the Street by Independentists.

I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist.

So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#75

Post by macspoofing »

avar wrote: post #65
JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

> We are peaceful people and have no guns. You might be peaceful, but according to Wikipedia Spain has 10.4 guns for every 100 people[1]. You're either entirely wrong, or Catalonia is an extreme statistical outlier when it comes to gun ownership in Spain. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

What does one have to do with the other?

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#76

Post by jayniz »

notspanishflu wrote: post #41
rdudekul wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence & other 'onesided-lawful' means. When a significant majority (apparently 90% who polled) wants to separate, calling it a joke, is not really apt.

>Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence... Except that statement is completely false.

Until this comment I thought you're serious!

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#77

Post by syshum »

notspanishflu wrote: post #52
farresito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't intervene, as it is 'domestic issues'. They are more than happy to turn a blind eye as long as there's nothing physical, since a hypothetical independence would cause instability in the EU and might give the pro-Independence movement more legitimacy.

The European Union leaders ain't turning a blind eye, they have showed their express support to the Spanish government, and to the rule of law.

>>and to the rule of law.

I have always found it fascinating how strongly people believe "the rule of law" to be the ethical and correct position. To uphold the rule of law no matter what. That the rule of law itself if the goal. No matter what those laws are, no matter if those laws are unethical, immoral, unjust. The rule of law itself is the goal. Not a moral society, not a just society, not a ethical society, but a society of law.

Why?

Almost every major atrocity in human history was legal under the laws governing the geographic zone they were committed in so why is there such strong support for this concept of "Rule of law"

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#78

Post by JaumeGreen »

pipio21 wrote: post #74
JaumeGreen wrote: post #3

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

The sentiment in the Street by Independentists. I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist. So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.

With "the sentiment on the street" I'm referring to the demostrations.

Most are pro-independence, and they are always full of people. Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October).

The "the fight will be catalan VS catalan" is an unionist mantra. People want to vote, not fight.

Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group, so they could repress us while giving the illusion of being right. That's why our movement will be pacifist.

Re: Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

#80

Post by notspanishflu »

farresito wrote: post #73
notspanishflu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European Union leaders ain't turning a blind eye, they have showed their express support to the Spanish government, and to the rule of law.

Make an effort to read the messages carefully, please. The parent comment said `what level of brutality the EU is willing to accept before intervening`, and by brutality I understand from the Spanish govt. side, and my answer was that they won't try to condemn this kind of brutality unless it goes physical. I never said anything about the EU not supporting Spanish's position; it makes plenty of sense, since it's in t…

I have read it carefully, thank you. Nothing changes.
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