African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#71

Post by travmatt » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:43 PM UTC

boxy310 wrote: post #30

Just finished the Audible version of The Great Courses' audiobook on linguistics, and they spent a chapter on this subject. A lot of the same elements in this paper are pointed out in the lecture, which may indicate the arguments in this paper were part of the foundational elements of that particular lecture. One of the things I found fascinating was that several of these grammatical elements are similar to periphera…

If you found that interesting, you’d probably also like “Black Rednecks and White Liberals” by Thomas Sowell.

A major theme is how major elements of ‘ghetto’ culture actually derive from the North-Britons and Scot’s these people lived near.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#72

Post by jpttsn » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

Social trends in America are never framed in terms of class. Instead, we have to reach for other dimensions, in this case race.

We could say it’s plain racism that keeps AAVE down. But it’s such an easy theory to falsify: it predicts that white non-standard English would be accepted at job interviews and in press rooms.

It isn’t. So it looks like race is one explainer, but not the whole story. It could be a combination of things, except Ockham sneers at those, especially when the elephant in the room—class—gets us so much further than race.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#73

Post by disantlor » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

garrettdc wrote: post #66

mabbo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…

The article isn't discussing accents, but rather differences in vocabulary and grammar between two dialects. There is a difference "He isn't going to do anything about it" with an accent and saying "He ain't gon' do nothin' bout it."

is there that much of a difference? how much? poster used the word "accent" but to my mind that includes regional variations in the language, not just the sonics.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#74

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #51

LordKano wrote: post #34

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…

[deleted]

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#75

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

JoBrad wrote: post #70

mabbo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…

Perhaps the Kansan accent you’re referring to is exempt from this, but I can tell you from personal experience that a strong Southern accent will cause your intellect and ability to do anything quickly to be seriously doubted, regardless of your actual ability. While some people have been able to capitalize on their accent, that is not true for many people. I chose pretty early on to moderate my accent as much as pos…

[deleted]

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#76

Post by jchw » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:45 PM UTC

stephenhuey wrote: post #62

alanbernstein wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what logic could any convention of spoken language be objectively correct?

I did not major in linguistics but I had some very engaging linguistics professors at Rice. Linguists consider themselves to be descriptive and typical language teachers in grade school to be prescriptive. In other words, linguists take pride in describing what native speakers actually do in practice rather than what they are instructed to do. So if they catch a native speaker doing something the "wrong" way they'll…

Basically I look at it this way: in reality, the coordination of 'correct' language is a practical consideration, and it is an error to consider it a matter of prestige, as if it's decidedly unintelligent to deviate from the established norms.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#77

Post by weberc2 » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:47 PM UTC

Pharylon wrote: post #32

scoot wrote: post #9

Am I understanding correctly that this paper is making the argument that because AAVE follows an identifiable set of grammatical rules, it is a dialect rather than an aberration? I don't have any opinion on that, I just wanted to make sure I understood the basic premise.

Sure, and many rules of AAVE are more consistent. For instance take the following words in standard English: * yourself * myself * ourselves * himself * itself One of these things is not like the other! All of these take the form of possive + "self," except "himself." And sure enough, in AAVE we have "hisself" instead. A more logical, consistent replacement.

I recall that immigrant populations that don't integrate into the main population for long periods of time have a tendency to learn simplified versions of the original language. If I recall correctly, Old English lost a lot of its ornament when the Norse settled in Britain.

EDIT: I'm puzzled by the downvotes. Am I mistaken? If so, I'm happy to be corrected.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#78

Post by trgv » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:47 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #51

LordKano wrote: post #34

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…

> No one criticizes him for speaking with his dialect of English. He doesn't have to code switch. He speaks the way he speaks, he's understood and respected.

This is an anecdote, not a rule. It's good that no one is judging this guy based on his accent, but that doesn't mean no one ever has or no one ever will. I guarantee some people will hear his accent and subconsciously (usually) form an opinion based on it.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#79

Post by jchw » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:47 PM UTC

GavinMcG wrote: post #38

jchw wrote: post #19

It's pretty hard to initially digest, but when you think about it, right and wrong with language is almost entirely just convention. The difference between what we consider 'bad' English and dialects of English is dubious at best.

Can you make a further argument for that? You're basically dismissing the article, but you're not offering anything to justify that.

I'm not sure I'm really disagreeing with the article so much as making an observation that falls in line with the conclusion.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#80

Post by looklittlejohn » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 6:48 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #51

LordKano wrote: post #34

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…

I'd disagree with you that speaking with a southern twang doesn't disqualify a person. I came out of deep East Texas and I have a bit of a drawl in my voice that comes out when I'm tired or stressed but for the most part, I intentionally speak as closely to SAE as possible. Because people do disqualify me and I think you may have judged your friend too. You say you associate his accent with people considered non-intellectuals? That's exactly what LordKano is saying he tries to avoid by speaking SAE in the business realm. Because he believes someone may make the judgement call that he is unintelligent because of the way he speaks, just like you associate speaking like a redneck to unintellicence.

I don't think this is about dialects being associated with any sort of people group. I think it's about having a standard way of speaking in a professional environment. And deviating from that may cause some people to have a negative bias against you.