The primary purpose of language is understanding. Forking a language to convey some sort of cultural distinction has the unfortunate side effect of making this more difficult.
African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
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Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you make a further argument for that? You're basically dismissing the article, but you're not offering anything to justify that.
By what logic could any convention of spoken language be objectively correct?
I did not major in linguistics but I had some very engaging linguistics professors at Rice. Linguists consider themselves to be descriptive and typical language teachers in grade school to be prescriptive. In other words, linguists take pride in describing what native speakers actually do in practice rather than what they are instructed to do. So if they catch a native speaker doing something the "wrong" way they'll classify it as an error only if native speakers will agree that the example in question was a mistake because it doesn't make sense in the dialect. If native speakers agree that whatever the speaker did actually does make sense to them, e.g. they're fine with the usage of "ain't" or split infinitives or whatever in everyday speech, then linguists will consider that to be a genuine example of the dialect. But linguists are quick to point out that what is correct changes all the time because words and phrases used by native speakers naturally erode and morph and new ones are adopted, and trying to nail down what is correct is futile.
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#63There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…
I largely agree. It's worth noting that there are lots of dialects (not sure if this is the proper term) in the U.S. besides AAVE that are perceived as uneducated, including my own native low-class rural dialect. At least in the case of my dialect, I would guess that whether or not you can speak SAE is a pretty good indicator of educational background, for better or worse. I wonder if this has been studied?
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#64The primary purpose of language is understanding. Forking a language to convey some sort of cultural distinction has the unfortunate side effect of making this more difficult.
not sure that's the primary purpose. It can also be a very strong way to reinforce / test the boundaries of a group. Do you talk like us or not? Are you one of us? There are a multitude of ways to convey understanding; the how is sometimes more important than the content.
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#65There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…
FWIW, I grew up in an Irish/Italian working-class fishing town in New England. I definitely speak differently at home vs. at work the biotech industry, and I don't mean profanity-wise, I mean accent-wise and grammatically as well. I would certainly sound "lower class" to certain people if I spoke this way at work or at a job interview. I suspect many of my colleagues who come from a similar class background would do the same.
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#66There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…
You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…
The article isn't discussing accents, but rather differences in vocabulary and grammar between two dialects. There is a difference "He isn't going to do anything about it" with an accent and saying "He ain't gon' do nothin' bout it."
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, but lots of people code switch. As a southern white guy, I also don't speak on interviews the same way I do to my friends. Even around other southerns, you want to "turn it down" in a professional setting. I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. Mastering it does open doors. But I think we should also learn about other dialects, because in learning about them…
>I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. I wouldn't be surprised if things get out of hand in California and English is seen as optional in some school districts in the future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_58_(201...
Overturning a silly restrictive proposition isn't anywhere close to "not gonna bother to teach people english".
I know it's fun to stand on slippery slopes, but don't.
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right. I mean, is American English just British English with mistakes? Or is British English just Anglo-Frisian with mistakes? Also, this is rather old news. Perhaps it was insightful, in its day.
Given the political and national context, I'd say this "old news" is quite up to date, and furthermore something that most people obviously don't believe in.
Yes, fair enough. I guess that it's just old news to me. Being old, and having read it 18 years ago ;)
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, and many rules of AAVE are more consistent. For instance take the following words in standard English: * yourself * myself * ourselves * himself * itself One of these things is not like the other! All of these take the form of possive + "self," except "himself." And sure enough, in AAVE we have "hisself" instead. A more logical, consistent replacement.
To more heavily emphasize the point here consider the feminine possive as well, her/hers: * herself
"her" is both the possessive and the accusative, so it's consistent with either myself or himself. Itself too, since you can consider it a contraction of either "it-self" or "its-self".
Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]
#70There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…
You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…
Perhaps the Kansan accent you’re referring to is exempt from this, but I can tell you from personal experience that a strong Southern accent will cause your intellect and ability to do anything quickly to be seriously doubted, regardless of your actual ability. While some people have been able to capitalize on their accent, that is not true for many people. I chose pretty early on to moderate my accent as much as possible, as have a lot of other people. Kathy Bates recently referenced this on Stephen Colbert.