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African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

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Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#41

Post by guelo »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #7
jbob2000 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It causes segregation based on race; Black people speak this language, white people speak this one. We're trying to bring these groups together, diving their language won't help at all.

I'm from rural Arkansas, and from my perspective, the dialect that is spoken there shares more in common with AAVE than standard English. The difference that I see is that I was expected to learn and speak standard English in a professional environment while the perception among my peers seems to be that those who natively speak AAVE expect their dialect to be accepted in all settings. Note that I was careful to say…

I don't know about the perception among your peers, but most AAVE speakers I know make an effort not to use it in professional settings.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#42

Post by jxramos »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #18

[deleted]

Applying the same logic of "if X is found in population Z, therefore culture of population Z" for say some objectively negative status such as health effects, mortality, etc, should be "disrespectful" as you say I would hope. "More diabetes? That's their culture" comes off a bit harsh right? Your comment makes me think about the origins of the phrase "blaming the victim" surrounding the Moyniham report.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#43

Post by wokeland »

LordKano wrote: post #34

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

David Foster Wallace wrote about the relationship between Standard Written English and social power structures in America. See "Authority and American Usage" or its reprint in Harper's, "Tense Present".

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#44

Post by Pharylon »

LordKano wrote: post #34

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

Sure, but lots of people code switch. As a southern white guy, I also don't speak on interviews the same way I do to my friends. Even around other southerns, you want to "turn it down" in a professional setting.

I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. Mastering it does open doors. But I think we should also learn about other dialects, because in learning about them we learn more about language.

I also think reducing the stigma of certain dialects is a good thing.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#46

Post by jbob2000 »

mikeash wrote: post #8
jbob2000 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It causes segregation based on race; Black people speak this language, white people speak this one. We're trying to bring these groups together, diving their language won't help at all.

It's also caused by segregation based on race. Fully integrated communities don't develop racially-linked dialects. In any case, talking about whether or not it helps seems to be pointless. The dialect exists whether it's helpful or not. If it's an obstacle to bringing people together, then we need to figure out ways to overcome that obstacle, not wish it away.

As it relates to the article, the school board basically sanctioned speaking this dialect. My thought was that, this action is increasing the obstacles to overcome: textbooks are written in "white" english and the teachers speak that way, but they're promoting that it's ok to not read, write, or understand the dialect, furthering the divide between the communities.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#47

Post by ryanobjc »

mirimir wrote: post #6
mabbo wrote: post #2

Languages change, evolve, and split into new languages. This has gone on forever- why would it stop now?

Right. I mean, is American English just British English with mistakes? Or is British English just Anglo-Frisian with mistakes? Also, this is rather old news. Perhaps it was insightful, in its day.

Given the political and national context, I'd say this "old news" is quite up to date, and furthermore something that most people obviously don't believe in.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#48

Post by sampo »

Norwegians spend the late 1800s and early 1900s quarreling amongst themselves what should be the standard for written Norwegian. Should they take the heavily Danish-influenced written language common in cities, or should they use something closer to the dialects spoken in the rural areas?

Eventually, their parliament ruled that Norway shall have two official written languages and all government documents will be published in both.

For example here are their parliament websites in both Nynorsk ("New Norwegian") and Bokmål ("Book tongue")

https://www.stortinget.no/nn/

https://www.stortinget.no/no/

Estimates vary, but maybe about 12% of Norwegians use Nynorsk as their primary language, and 88% are Bokmål users.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language_conflict

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nynorsk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokm%C3%A5l

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#49

Post by alanbernstein »

GavinMcG wrote: post #38
jchw wrote: post #19

It's pretty hard to initially digest, but when you think about it, right and wrong with language is almost entirely just convention. The difference between what we consider 'bad' English and dialects of English is dubious at best.

Can you make a further argument for that? You're basically dismissing the article, but you're not offering anything to justify that.

By what logic could any convention of spoken language be objectively correct?

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#50

Post by nielsbot »

LordKano wrote: post #34

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

Relevant and interesting (when talking about the dialect of power): https://www.thsppl.com/thsppl-articles/2017/4/20/its-not-abo...
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