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African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

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Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#21

Post by wokeland »

Had to fact-check that opening remark about Oakland being half African American. Sounded a little high but the 1990 census does show 44% Black. By current census estimates it's only 26%.

That aside, while it is cute that people make academic studies of this language, as a resident of Oakland I agree with the reactionaries that it should be exterminated instead. Recently when I was riding the bus, a woman on the bus loudly announced that "all dem bitch-ass niggas be hella gay". It does not matter to me that she meant "those people are habitual homosexuals" instead of "those people are currently homosexual". All I know is the language and the culture associated with that language have no place in public life or public school.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#22

Post by Karunamon »

monochromatic wrote: post #13
rhizome wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It causes segregation based on race Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Why isn't it a result of segregation?

The causation probably goes both directions here.

Indeed. It's a bit ridiculous to assume that how someone speaks doesn't influence the perceptions of others.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#24

Post by rhizome »

ak_yo wrote: post #14
jbob2000 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It causes segregation based on race; Black people speak this language, white people speak this one. We're trying to bring these groups together, diving their language won't help at all.

I'd be interested in reading evidence that supports a causal link between AAVE usage and segregation. To the best of my knowledge, no research has shown this to be the case, but I might be missing something. Did you have a particular study in mind?

jbob2000 rarely participates in the inflammatory threads he sparks, so the smart money here is probably in avoiding anything with a question mark.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#25

Post by conistonwater »

scoot wrote: post #9

Am I understanding correctly that this paper is making the argument that because AAVE follows an identifiable set of grammatical rules, it is a dialect rather than an aberration? I don't have any opinion on that, I just wanted to make sure I understood the basic premise.

If you want to read more about dialects, I know Victor Mair (from Language Log) wrote a lot about such things in the context of Chinese (e.g., http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=10303; http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?cat=124). That's not anything specifically to do with AAVE, but more the general concept of what does and doesn't let you call something a dialect.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#26

Post by tempYeez »

monochromatic wrote: post #17
tempYeez wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a very inflammatory statement. I doubt what most african americans want out of desegregation is their culture wiped out and replace with american white culture. The more apt solution would be to stop being prejudice towards other american subcultures.

It’s not just a racial things. Rural whites have their own way of speaking that’s stigmatized in professional settings too.

Agreed it's a cultural one. African Americans aren't a race they are an ethnic group with their own culture including dialect. This dialect isn't shared among african americans and lets say Nigerians.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#27

Post by Karunamon »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #18

[deleted]

It is a result of the educational oppression and lack of English language and grammar education for African Americans.

Assuming for a moment that this is a true or even defensible statement, trying to "fix" it would be an even greater injustice. You can't rightly rip someone's culture away, regardless of how it got there in the first place. Expect any such attempts to go over poorly.

Also, keep in mind that the point of language is to communicate. So long as that goal is being achieved, what's the problem? I find this sort of linguistic prescriptivism (thou shalt use these words these ways) to be counterproductive and rather silly.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#28

Post by beat »

It is "wrong" because it is not the vernacular of the dominant culture. Just like baggy pants are 'wrong" just because they're not the clothing style of the dominant culture.

Differences arise as a result of segregation, and are then used to justify continuing that segregation. Perhaps "deliberate" is the wrong word here, but certainly expected.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#29

Post by psyc »

monochromatic wrote: post #17
tempYeez wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a very inflammatory statement. I doubt what most african americans want out of desegregation is their culture wiped out and replace with american white culture. The more apt solution would be to stop being prejudice towards other american subcultures.

It’s not just a racial things. Rural whites have their own way of speaking that’s stigmatized in professional settings too.

It would take a lot of confidence and charisma even for me to pull off my local white, urban dialect in the workplace. I really don't think it's asking too much to adopt a standard depending on context and audience.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#30

Post by boxy310 »

Just finished the Audible version of The Great Courses' audiobook on linguistics, and they spent a chapter on this subject. A lot of the same elements in this paper are pointed out in the lecture, which may indicate the arguments in this paper were part of the foundational elements of that particular lecture.

One of the things I found fascinating was that several of these grammatical elements are similar to peripheral English accents of Ireland, Cornwall, or York. The lecture noted that many of the indentured servants from Britain would be quartered alongside slaves, and that the strongest language reinforcement comes from people you live and work alongside.

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