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iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

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Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#211

Post by dx034 »

digi_owl wrote: post #69
davb wrote: post #39

In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings. Changing defa…

Sadly the default assumption in IT these days is "users are dumb sheep". Its not just Apple or Google, MS is doing it as well, and I see more and more of it in the FOSS world.

Because if they changed it, 1% would be happy while the other 99% would complain about high charges. And $1000 phone bills because of an iCloud backup are the stories that go viral.

You can warn 3 times and people would still agree and complain later. Disallowing options that are costly for the vast majority is the only option. The number of iphone users with true unlimited data is probably <5%.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#212

Post by golangnews »

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

You can't use 3D touch to turn off wifi. According to Apple you have go into settings to do so.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208086

The problems with this change are:

It is surprising - grey buttons usually mean disabled permanently, not disabled except for some uses or for some indeterminate length of time.

It changes established behaviour without a clear warning to the user.

It is inconsistent - disabling bluetooth now disconnects from all devices (except Apple ones!), and it says 'Not Connected' when it is in fact connected to an Apple Watch say.

It is inconsistent - other buttons like airplane mode or mobile data do turn off permanently.

It's not a huge deal and everyone will adapt, but you shouldn't be apologising for Apple here - this was badly done and not well thought out.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#213

Post by briandear »

josteink wrote: post #171
clouddrover wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi The way I've run every smartphone I've owned is to turn off mobile data, WiFi, and Bluetooth and only turn them on as and when I need them. I prefer it to work that way. The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing. I can turn mobile data on and off via Control Centre. But, while I can turn WiFi on in Control Centre, I…

> The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing I really don't see how the apologists can deny this. In iOS every UI control to toggle something on or off toggles things on or off... They all have the same UI presentation, and shows the same affordances, leading the user to expect the same behaviour. And that they have. Everywhere except for wifi. Who in their right mind though this was a good idea?…

This is just totally false. Airplane mode is still airplane mode and turns everything off.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#214

Post by dx034 »

galeforcewinds wrote: post #186

Bob Pease once said, "my favorite programming language is solder." That this OS runs on closed, proprietary hardware means we either need a third-party solution, for purchasers to vote with their feet, or for the vendor to be brought to their senses. Perhaps this is a regulatory matter for the FCC to evaluate (now or later).

There is an alternative called Android where you have a choice of different manufacturers that all deliver somewhat different systems. And you can install your own OS on most devices. Android has more users than iOS so it's not that Apple would exploit their monopoly.

People can vote with their feet but they like what they get with an iPhone. The number of people that want to compile their own OS is very limited.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#215

Post by icebraining »

hungerstrike wrote: post #172

I wonder what Steve Jobs would’ve said if this were a feature of other devices when he asked everybody to get off of Wi-Fi at WWDC? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqfRx61BUg

Probably the same thing, as this feature would do what he intended.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#216

Post by josteink »

briandear wrote: post #213
josteink wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing I really don't see how the apologists can deny this. In iOS every UI control to toggle something on or off toggles things on or off... They all have the same UI presentation, and shows the same affordances, leading the user to expect the same behaviour. And that they have. Everywhere except for wifi. Who in their right mind though this was a good idea?…

This is just totally false. Airplane mode is still airplane mode and turns everything off.

My point is that on wifi-only devices, people have been conditioned into believing that turning wifi off effectively is the same as flight mode.

Now it no longer is. Why did Apple have to cause this needless confusion?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#217

Post by bonzini »

coldtea wrote: post #205
codefined wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever . The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable. Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to…

> This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever. Well, there IS a strike-over in the icon when you fully disable wifi.

As long as you discover how to fully disable WiFi. At the very least, they should have applied 3D Touch to it...

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#218

Post by josteink »

sigjuice wrote: post #201
josteink wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing I really don't see how the apologists can deny this. In iOS every UI control to toggle something on or off toggles things on or off... They all have the same UI presentation, and shows the same affordances, leading the user to expect the same behaviour. And that they have. Everywhere except for wifi. Who in their right mind though this was a good idea?…

When you get on a plane, enabling Airplane Mode should turn off all the radios on an iPhone or iPad. You say flight mode doesn't work , so is this no longer the case?

I believe flight mode actually works, but people with wifi-only devices have been conditioned to believe disabling wifi is sufficient.

And with Apple now being inconsistent about what a on/off toggle actually does... It's hard to tell what toggling flight-mode actually results in.

And if I were in the airline business, I would take an issue with that.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#219

Post by lathiat »

cassowary wrote: post #168
lathiat wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a generally well educated person in both security, radios, etc. I can tell you that the control Centre Wi-Fi is basically always used by me to disconnect from the current network. And it persistently infuriated me when I would later forget and was on mobile data. I can also see users frequently being confused by things like their Apple Pencil not working. I love this change. You can still turn it off properly in…

Hi Lathiat. Why do you need to disconnect from the current network? I can think of many alternatively implementations which would meet most requirements that have been proposed, like turning the wifi back on when the battery is charging or at 5am. All the proposals involve compromises, but it seems much easier to make a notice that clearly says "Wifi will reconnect at 5am" then to say "Wifi is still using your batter…

Disconnecting from the current network is usually because something is broken about that network for some reason (or in some cases, 4G is just much faster). Having said that, the number of times I do this has been significantly reduced by "Wi-Fi Assist" (which turns off the wifi network automatically if the connection seems poor/broken). People also complained about this feature (because it uses my mobile data!!!) -- but I imagine the majority of people are now blissfully unaware when their iPhone saves them from apps or pages not loading and the general experience is much better.

Having had this discussion a few times, I'd love to do a solid battery life investigation of turning off wi-fi properly versus this toggle.. given it disables auto-join I imagine the scanning frequency is significantly reduced and thus the power usage is probably relatively comparable (close enough). But that's just a guess, I don't know for sure, but I'd sure love to know.

I'd also love to know the battery impact of turning bluetooth off entirely. These things all seem like antipatterns to do as a regular usage thing and I think that, in most cases without actual research, they're a bad idea for people to get into the habbit of. For precisely the reasons outlined here and by apple.. later using mobile data accidentally, being confused your apple pencil works, etc.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#220

Post by fehrm »

jwong_ wrote: post #108
dvcrn wrote: post #23

I hate this. I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city, some of them require authentication, some of them don't. I leave work, mount my phone on my bike, "turn off" WiFi and cycle before realizing that nothing (like maps) is updating because I connected to a wifi point that needs authentication, or a point that is now far away because I already cycled by. While cycling, I reach to my phone and switch it "off" a…

If you want to be off wifi why not just fully turn it off? It seems like you want it to be off for a long time. Going into settings to turn off the radio doesn't seem to be hugely laborious if you really do want it off for the entire ride.

That is what he did. It is a toggle. It is not a feature to force everyone to go to settings and click a kit more times. It is silly to claim that this is fine.
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