Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 342 posts

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#181

Post by function_seven »

zaroth wrote: post #173
cassowary wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hidden feature isn't communicated. I don't know why features are going to do something weird if I short click vs long click. There's simply no communication. Maybe some shadow (3D) effect on something which you can 3D touch would make a huge difference. (It's probably ugly, but the feature itself is ugly, so you'd expect the UI should reflect that.) A right click menu was considered a hidden feature by Apple in the…

My thought was the WiFi icon should turn into a progress indicator to show that its snoozing, maybe like how apps show they are installing by graying it out in a circular sweep.

That would make me think it's trying to connect. I don't think motion would be appropriate for the intermediate state of a tri-state indicator.

Maybe a lighter shade of blue? Or a white background with the icon colored vivid blue?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#182

Post by blub »

panarky wrote: post #14
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

> No. Yes. It's not just because people forget to turn Wi-Fi back on. Radios are "off-ish" because they remain on for other Apple devices and services, but off for other uses. What actually happens in iOS 11 when you toggle your quick settings to "off" is that the phone will disconnect from Wi-Fi networks and some devices, but remain on for Apple services. Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple…

I don't have any other Apple devices. And no, long pressing and toggling is not disabling it on I think they just fucked up.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#183

Post by beedogs »

jonahx wrote: post #50
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

> No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money... Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone. If this was their intention, they could have implemented the feature honestly, informing users about what was happening, and offering a clear choice, such as an immediate popup, between "turn off for this location" and "turn off completely." That would have been fine. But the exis…

> Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone.

And, of course, voted up to the very top of the comments section here, as usual. The Apple apologists here are a bit of a plague.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#184

Post by function_seven »

kfriede wrote: post #145
cassowary wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hidden feature isn't communicated. I don't know why features are going to do something weird if I short click vs long click. There's simply no communication. Maybe some shadow (3D) effect on something which you can 3D touch would make a huge difference. (It's probably ugly, but the feature itself is ugly, so you'd expect the UI should reflect that.) A right click menu was considered a hidden feature by Apple in the…

It's more than a hidden feature though. Pressing the wifi button (where you would normally expect it to turn the radio off) literally brings up a text saying "Disconnected from {SSID}"

I'm sure many people would think that message confirms they turned off the WiFi.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#185

Post by cassowary »

djrogers wrote: post #102
trowawee wrote: post #42

This has been easily the most obnoxious change of iOS 11. It is super annoying to have to dismiss the list of available WiFi networks every single time I open my phone while walking around the city, no matter how many times I turn my WiFi off.

Turn off ‘ask to join networks’ - mine been that ways for 10 years and it’s much better.

I hate both. If "ask" is on, it's constantly harassing me. If "ask" is off, I have to search hard to find the setting that lets me connect to a wifi network in a tool that also lets me change the language I'm using.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#186

Post by galeforcewinds »

Bob Pease once said, "my favorite programming language is solder." That this OS runs on closed, proprietary hardware means we either need a third-party solution, for purchasers to vote with their feet, or for the vendor to be brought to their senses. Perhaps this is a regulatory matter for the FCC to evaluate (now or later).

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#187

Post by blub »

raimue wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android…

In practice the wifi does whatever it wants. I toggle it off and then it's blue again 2 minutes later.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#188

Post by caf »

jsjohnst wrote: post #130
MBCook wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It IS communicated. If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”. If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected. On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it. This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better settin…

> At this point I’m not sure there’s a need for normal users to actually turn off Wi-Fi. Or anyone who doesn’t want to be tracked by random retailers. I worked for one such company, so I know intimately how it works, including how MAC address randomization doesn’t actually work in the real world at completely obscuring your device.

Would you mind sharing the details of how MAC address randomization is being defeated in the real world?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#189

Post by blub »

trowawee wrote: post #42

This has been easily the most obnoxious change of iOS 11. It is super annoying to have to dismiss the list of available WiFi networks every single time I open my phone while walking around the city, no matter how many times I turn my WiFi off.

This and removing buttons from the landscape keyboard.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#190

Post by TimTheTinker »

beager wrote: post #113
morganvachon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"offering the option to actually turn the services off." I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when i…

3D touch and long-press are such awful places to bury any sort of functionality. There are no visual cues, no material cues, and the only way you'd know about those things are to watch Apple keynotes. How hard would it have been to emulate what they did with f.lux, I mean Night Shift and say "Bluetooth, off until 5am (tap for more options)" or "Wi-Fi, off at this location (tap for more options)"

Not to mention that 3D Touch isn’t available on all currently sold models.
Post reply on HN