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iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

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Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#121

Post by stephen_g »

vacri wrote: post #83
morganvachon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"offering the option to actually turn the services off." I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when i…

Apple changed the behaviour of something that people have been using since the first smartphone (before, even), without indicating that to the user. Saying that the option is there when it's poorly-discoverable doesn't really counter the GP's point.

I think there is a valid point that while this is changing what is happening under the hood, the behaviour is effectively identical for the vast majority of users, and arguably improved for most use cases (most non-technical users wouldn't understand that that switch would stop airdrop working, and even as an extremely technical user I have accidentally forgotten to switch my WiFi back on after needing to temporarily disconnect, and have ended up using a fair bit of 4G data. Luckily I have a lot of included data on my plan, but for some they might have to pay extra).

You can still switch off the radios if you want in settings.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#122

Post by neotek »

clouddrover wrote: post #112
neotek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't accept it on what possible grounds? Do you really think the majority of iOS users, or even a sizeable minority, use their phones in the way you do?

That it's ridiculous. Reread what I have written. I made no comment on what the majority of iOS users do. I'm talking about what I do.

I'm sorry but you absolutely did. You were asked whether you "accept that [turning off mobile data, wifi, and bluetooth and only re-enabling them when you explicitly need them] is a ridiculously small minority use case", to which you replied "I don't accept that", and then followed on with a non sequitur about it being a "common sense approach."

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#123

Post by Too »

cdmoyer wrote: post #70
firebolt327 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not communicated and is completely bogus, do you expect users to "expand" the panel and read carefully the small text under which says "Not connected" and map it to, "hey this is me Apple, royally screwing with you, even though you wanted to turn off Wifi, and you just did that, I won't turn it off, I am gonna lie to you and keep eating your battery till your phone die" That's exactly what happened to me when…

You don't have to expand the panel or 3d touch or anything. https://m.imgur.com/SSeZQUC I'll admit that this behavior is what I want 99% of the time, so it also doesn't bother me.

Ehhhhh, so now "disconnected from ssid" + gray wifi-button means "wifi temporarily turned off"? That is not clearly communicated. At all.

I do think the new behavior is better for me as a user 99% of the time, but at the same time i also want to know what is happening and how to override it.

Silent mode on android shows how to do it correctly, there you get a popup when activating it asking for how long you want it to be silent. It has a few presets so you just need one extra tap. That is the correct behaviour, if that's to much for an Apple mind to handle, the very least they should do is to inform of the actual state with a more descriptive label.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#124

Post by IBM »

beager wrote: post #117
IBM wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did inform users. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086

I fail to see how dumping documentation for a cryptic feature at such an unfriendly URL counts as "informing".

The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. This support document explains the change and how it all works in-depth for anyone who will actually care to know (everyone who reads HN or tech blogs and pretty much no one else).

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#125

Post by devrandomguy »

spc476 wrote: post #106
getaclue wrote: post #34

Is it to farfetched to say that this may have lead to a decrease in performance and battery life that I've noticed on my iPhone 7 plus? I mean... the phone feels... sluggish now. I don't know how else to say it. Interesting time we live in friends. It seems like you have to observe every application, every update, and monitor everything if you want your software to do what you expect it to do by using it. Passing it…

I'm resigned to the fact that any workflow I have will break with the next update. And if it's a web application, it will break with the next refresh (I'm looking at you, Google Maps!). It's the CADT model [1] writ large. [1] https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

Dude. That redirects to a picture of a scrotum in a cup, if you arrive with an HN referer header. I'm guessing you got pranked, lol.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#126

Post by neotek »

trowawee wrote: post #111
neotek wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not just actually turn your wifi off? They didn't remove your ability to do so, just changed the way you do it.

I mean, I can. It's just an annoying pain in the ass, now, rather than a simple toggle. Which was a stupid decision on Apple's part.

Is it more or less annoying than having to dismiss the list of available wifi networks?

This change might be inconvenient for you personally, but I suspect there's no way in hell Apple would have made this change if they didn't have robust data on the way their average customer uses their device and didn't believe that this was a positive change.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#127

Post by flukus »

IBM wrote: post #124
beager wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how dumping documentation for a cryptic feature at such an unfriendly URL counts as "informing".

The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. This support document explains the change and how it all works in-depth for anyone who will actually care to know (everyone who reads HN or tech blogs and pretty much no one else).

> The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network.

The UI (mis)informs the user that wifi has been turned off by greying it out, at the very least it's inconsistent with other toggle buttons. Or are there other things apple decides that you don't really want turned off?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#128

Post by beager »

IBM wrote: post #124
beager wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how dumping documentation for a cryptic feature at such an unfriendly URL counts as "informing".

The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. This support document explains the change and how it all works in-depth for anyone who will actually care to know (everyone who reads HN or tech blogs and pretty much no one else).

Can you describe a reasonable scenario where a layperson would see the support document prior to encountering some sort of frustration with the feature in question?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#129

Post by neotek »

trowawee wrote: post #110
djrogers wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn off ‘ask to join networks’ - mine been that ways for 10 years and it’s much better.

I...don't want my phone to automatically connect to random open access points? I live in a city where there are at least 5 separate open networks available at nearly all times if you're just walking around, most of which I do not want to connect to.

Turning off "ask to join networks" also stops your phone from connecting to open networks automatically. It will still autoconnect to networks that you have previously connected to, though, unless you explicitly tell it to forget that network.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#130

Post by jsjohnst »

MBCook wrote: post #15
codefined wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever . The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable. Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to…

It IS communicated. If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”. If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected. On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it. This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better settin…

> At this point I’m not sure there’s a need for normal users to actually turn off Wi-Fi.

Or anyone who doesn’t want to be tracked by random retailers. I worked for one such company, so I know intimately how it works, including how MAC address randomization doesn’t actually work in the real world at completely obscuring your device.

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