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China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

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Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#121
post #118

Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway, which positions itself as egalitarian and goes the extra mile in various areas such as excluding certain companies from investment by its global sovereign fund on ethical grounds[1]. This was also chilling to read: "And when the Dalai Lama was invited to Norway in 2014 by the Norwegian Nobel Committee to celebrate his receiving the Nobel Peac…

I don't get why this is such a big deal or "deep capitulation". Its a statement, seems more like net win for Norway, they got concrete economical benefits by trading in some (empty) words. While the treatment of Dalai Lama was unfortunate, it also happened before this normalization, during a period of appeasement. Now that the relations are bit better again and an agreement has been reached, I would expect (somewhat…

I doubt Norway alone could make a meaningful impact on China's social and geopolitical policy either. But like any type of protests it always takes one person to stand up to get the ball rolling, hopefully making some persuasive points, for others to join in to create real pressure.

Yet China has perfected their anti-western propaganda machine, when it's not censored it's to turned into victimization narratives or other reversals. The only 'real' pressure would be a united front with real economic costs imposed on China. That'd have to start somewhere but the efficacy must be honestly considered vs the very real costs China could impose in return against a single weaker opponent.

Considering many other bigger western countries have capitulated to China in similar ways, far quieter, over Taiwan and other social issues, it's better to characterize this as Norway falling into line with the rest of the countries. It wasn't quite a protest from the beginning nor was China bullying one country in particular (although the Noble prize thing clearly struck a strong cord among the elite).

One alternative, albeit a more cynical long-term perspective, with greater free trade and economic growth the Chinese middle class will continue to grow and each new young generation will be far better educated. Since external pressure seems unlikely to be effective or to be well incentivized, internal progress seems like the only hope.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The President doesn't have as much power as we may believe. With these "wars" in particular he actually does have a great deal of power. They aren't actually wars but "military actions" for the most part. The commander in chief can unilaterally order the armed forced to withdraw if he so wished. Instead Obama ordered drone strike after drone strike, bombing after bombing (so many in fact that there was serious conce…

I completely agree. But what do you think they would have done to him had he refused to go along with it?

I don't have the information required to tell you specifically what would happen, but I will note the media was very friendly with the Obama administration. Those media organizations are held by parent companies that also often own weapons manufacturers. Obama was a man who was very concerned with his legacy and thus by the transitive property media portrayals of himself. Is it possible that he traded the lives of innocents for his personal vanity? Maybe, but the truth is we will probably never know why he did what he did. The only thing that I can say for certain is he didn't deserve any award with peace in the title.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#123
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> processed fish are a fungible commodity and could be sold for the same price outside of China yes. right. that aspect of this story puzzles me. i thought that was how globalism worked. i mean, can't Norway just sell the fish to, say, Canada, which could then sell its farmed salmon to China, etc? i can't quite see what difference this will make. is Norway geographically closer to China than other salmon producing na…

Those triangulations are possible only if the destination country is willing to pay a premium for the banned goods. Norwegian salmon would cost more in China because the Canadians are going to put some markup on it (and fairly, because they'll have to do some work on their own.) Or keep the same price for the consumer and gain less. In both cases Norway is going to lose money compared to normal commercial relationshi…

Right. Sorry, I didn't explain my thoughts well.

This is more what I had in mind: Instead of selling its salmon to China, Norway sells all of its salmon to the US, France and Germany. So now US, French and German consumers buy that much less salmon from other salmon farming countries like Chile and Canada. And Chile and Canada are free to sell their farm-raised salmon to China.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#124

International "meta"-law is so ridiculous. I mean the customary rules concerning recognition of states, embassies, passports [1], etc.. If I was ruler of a small country, I would say "of course we won't recognize Taiwan. We will foobar them. They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah ." (which de facto will be exactly the same thing) [1] Concerning passports, no matter how radically different states are, the US,…

The United States of America does not recognize Taiwan. They don't get an embassy, but they get an American Institute in Taiwan, and Taiwan has a Taipai Economic and Cultural Representative Office in DC. This arrangement with Taiwan exists with lots of countries.

It was easier to back Taiwan when it was an economic juggernaut and China was fumbling around with failed socialism experiments. Not to mention the advanced military gear they had vs China's older systems.

But the US has very much backed off it's strong Taiwan stance, at least in practice, now that China is both economically and militarily far stronger. China has largely let the US save face in the process so the US capitulation is not as prominent as the Chinese pressure on Norway and other countries.

Geopolitics is not unlike mob rules in this way, when it comes down to the wire, assuming the other guy has power and money is on the line,.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#125
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama won the year before Liu Xiaobo, so how does this make sense?

Liu Xiaobo always has supporters. Far as I can remember, at that time (Around 2009, 20 years after Tiananmen event), there are some people says Liu Xiaobo should be awarded with the peace prize for against CCP's dictatorship. Some people event had a debate about it. Some say Liu is a hero for democratize China, others say he's wants China to be invaded and controlled by ... may be the US? That debate later end with O…

> others say he's wants China to be invaded and controlled by external enemy

This is what all the dictators say.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#126

There are two notable points in this piece: 1) China suspended normal diplomatic relations with Norway, tossed out a free trade agreement, largely shut down fishing imports from the country and made it far more difficult for Norwegians to get visas to travel study or work in China. All of this was because of an activist being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize, which is process controlled a foundation, not directly by the N…

> All of this was because of an activist being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize, which is process controlled a foundation, not directly by the Norwegian government.

The nobel committee is set by the norwegian parliament.

"The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded by a committee of five, appointed by the Storting (the Norwegian parliament)."

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/prize_awarder/...

And the nobel prizes ( particularly in peace ) has been used by the norwegian government to advance political causes. A prime example being obama being awarded the nobel peace prize before he did anything as president.

Regardless of your views on china, the nobel peace prize is a political prize.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#127
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not comparing it to the UN, but how it is referred to in the media is often misleading, especially the "in the Hague" part. Quite a few articles even dropped that bit and just referred to it as an "UN court/tribunal". It gave the impression that China is defying the UN, not saying that China wouldn't do something like that, but they didn't in this instance. And because it is a court of arbitration, both sides ha…

>It gave the impression that China is defying the UN, not saying that China wouldn't do something like that, but they didn't in this instance. You're right that they _would_ do something like that! ;) In fact, they did in this case. I'll explain below. >And because it is a court of arbitration, both sides have to agree to have their dispute resolved by arbitration in the first place. China did not agree to it. Not qu…

Okay, this is getting way beyond my level of legal knowledge.

> China knew this going in, and agreed to it when they signed the treaty.

China signed it but they didn't agree to compulsory arbitration. They made declaration to that effect, along with a number of countries.

https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/conventio...

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#128
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If Norway signs a similar agreement an EEA country with open land borders with the EU will have a FTA with China. ... Norway become a shipping and distribution hub for Chinese goods into the EU" No, it doesn't work like that. Norway is not a member of the European customs union. Goods moving between Norway and the EU are subject to customs checks and, potentially, tariffs. You can't just trans-ship Chinese goods lan…

I understand that Norway doesn't have duty-free import of goods into the EU. What I'm referring to is that the existing tolls and import duties weren't negotiated with the assumption that Norway has tariff-free access to the biggest producer of cheap goods in the world. I elaborated a bit on this in a sibling comment[1], but let's say for example that the import duties on electric drills from China into the EU are se…

Norway certainly can't import Chinese drills at 0% and then re-export them to Germany under the Norwegian tariff. Those drills are still of Chinese origin, and re-labeling them otherwise would be illegal. Only Norwegian drills can benefit from Norway's 10% tariff.

As for goods of mixed origin (manufactured in Norway but benefiting from Chinese inputs/components), that is indeed where things get complicated. And that's one of the reasons why trade agreements typically run many thousands of pages and take years to negotiate! But the WTO has pretty comprehensive "Rules of origin" to use as a starting point.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The President doesn't have as much power as we may believe. With these "wars" in particular he actually does have a great deal of power. They aren't actually wars but "military actions" for the most part. The commander in chief can unilaterally order the armed forced to withdraw if he so wished. Instead Obama ordered drone strike after drone strike, bombing after bombing (so many in fact that there was serious conce…

I completely agree. But what do you think they would have done to him had he refused to go along with it?

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