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China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

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Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#91

Post by bergjs »

mamon wrote: post #60
danmaz74 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is part of the single market (including free movement of people) and benefits from it, so, what they did is completely different from what the UK is going to do. But, most importantly, it's much much more disruptive to first join and then pull out that not joining at all.

So basicaly Norway got itself the best possible deal: all benefits of EU membership without any of the downsides (e.g. common currency or political correctnes bullshit).

This is not correct as far as I know. The Norwegian government wanted to join the EU because in the current state they have a lot of obligations to be allowed to the single market and they even have to pay a large sum for it but they get no say in it. Voting rights are limited to full EU members. They are getting a bad deal, just like the UK will, simply because the population does not want to join the EU.

I want also to point out that this would not have happened if Norway had been in the EU already in 2010 because China would not risk trade with all of the EU because of such a small incident.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#92

Post by freeone3000 »

captainmuon wrote: post #51

International "meta"-law is so ridiculous. I mean the customary rules concerning recognition of states, embassies, passports [1], etc.. If I was ruler of a small country, I would say "of course we won't recognize Taiwan. We will foobar them. They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah ." (which de facto will be exactly the same thing) [1] Concerning passports, no matter how radically different states are, the US,…

The United States of America does not recognize Taiwan. They don't get an embassy, but they get an American Institute in Taiwan, and Taiwan has a Taipai Economic and Cultural Representative Office in DC. This arrangement with Taiwan exists with lots of countries.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#93

Post by Reason077 »

avar wrote: post #54
vidarh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway at least have no current interest in EU membership. Support for EU membership has for a long time been so low (last year polls indicated 71% no, compared to an almost even result in the '94 referendum) that there's no prospect of another EU referendum anytime soon.

Norway and Iceland don't need to become full EU members for a China FTA creating conflicts between them and the EU. There's already overlap between products covered under Iceland's FTA with China and its FTA with the EU/EEA, but in practice it doesn't matter much because any gains from lower import duties are negated by expensive shipping from Iceland. If Norway signs a similar agreement an EEA country with open land…

"If Norway signs a similar agreement an EEA country with open land borders with the EU will have a FTA with China. ... Norway become a shipping and distribution hub for Chinese goods into the EU"

No, it doesn't work like that. Norway is not a member of the European customs union. Goods moving between Norway and the EU are subject to customs checks and, potentially, tariffs. You can't just trans-ship Chinese goods landed in Norway onward into the EU without customs declarations, inspections, and all that.

Of course, private citizens can travel pretty much freely across the EU-Norway border. Goods can move freely in small, personal-use quantities (Norwegians certainly like to shop across the border at cheaper Swedish supermarkets, etc). But as soon as you start shipping stuff in commercial volumes, it is subject to customs just like any other Chinese goods coming in to the EU would be.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#94

Post by fhood »

mikeash wrote: post #80
imron wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway China forces every country that it has normalised relations with to adhere to the 'One China' policy. Does your country have a Chinese embassy in it? Guess what, your country adheres to the 'One China' policy too.

It's one thing to officially adhere to "One China" and quite another to shun respected people that China doesn't like. Do other countries do that second one? The US seems to have no problem allowing the Dalai Lama to meet the President, for example.

Well, the US can piss off China with relative impunity. We represent 18 percent of their exports, and their currency is pegged to the dollar. Norway is less influential.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#95

Post by imron »

Geekette wrote: post #68
imron wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway China forces every country that it has normalised relations with to adhere to the 'One China' policy. Does your country have a Chinese embassy in it? Guess what, your country adheres to the 'One China' policy too.

Pretty sure other countries' recognition of (which does not necessarily equate to acceptance or support of) China's position on this do not extend to the level of sovereign embarrassment and capitulation outlined in the post.

Other countries capitulate rather easily also:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/11/dalai-lama-pope-fra...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/9717544...

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plan...

And there are many more examples. As China's influence grows, so too will the list of examples. Note: I'm not in support of this, just stating the current reality.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#96

Post by pmontra »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #90
MagnumOpus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fishing is not as big as oil, but it is still an important part of the economy Meh. It employs 7k-10k people and contributes 0.7% of the economy. That is chickenfeed, and a particularly dumb thing to give up their principles over - particularly because processed fish are a fungible commodity and could be sold for the same price outside of China.

> processed fish are a fungible commodity and could be sold for the same price outside of China yes. right. that aspect of this story puzzles me. i thought that was how globalism worked. i mean, can't Norway just sell the fish to, say, Canada, which could then sell its farmed salmon to China, etc? i can't quite see what difference this will make. is Norway geographically closer to China than other salmon producing na…

Those triangulations are possible only if the destination country is willing to pay a premium for the banned goods.

Norwegian salmon would cost more in China because the Canadians are going to put some markup on it (and fairly, because they'll have to do some work on their own.) Or keep the same price for the consumer and gain less. In both cases Norway is going to lose money compared to normal commercial relationships.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#97

Post by astebbin »

nnq wrote: post #87

How did Liu Xiaobo become so important? So much happening for this guy expressing his opinions, wtf?! If an American or someone from most European countries would express similar opinions wrt his own country's government... nobody would blink a fucking eye, regardless of who gave him what prize... (And we all know that Nobels for anything except science are 100% bullshit. Heck, I'd even question the relevance of the…

In American high school I learned not just about Nathan Hale and Martin Luther King Jr., but also about Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi, and Sophie Scholl. These figures are famous for the strength of their moral beliefs, the brutality they endured as a result, and their perseverance despite such adversity.

On these points, I think Liu Xiaobo is of equal merit. This would explain his visibility in the West. If students in China aren't taught similar stories or values, then I could understand the difficulty to relate.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#98

Post by _0w8t »

Geekette wrote: post #57

Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway, which positions itself as egalitarian and goes the extra mile in various areas such as excluding certain companies from investment by its global sovereign fund on ethical grounds[1]. This was also chilling to read: "And when the Dalai Lama was invited to Norway in 2014 by the Norwegian Nobel Committee to celebrate his receiving the Nobel Peac…

Unfortunately the fish farming industry lobby in Norway is too strong to adhere to those principals when negotiating with China.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#99

Post by Gaelan »

imron wrote: post #63
captainmuon wrote: post #51

International "meta"-law is so ridiculous. I mean the customary rules concerning recognition of states, embassies, passports [1], etc.. If I was ruler of a small country, I would say "of course we won't recognize Taiwan. We will foobar them. They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah ." (which de facto will be exactly the same thing) [1] Concerning passports, no matter how radically different states are, the US,…

> They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah. Other countries do this already and not just small ones. For example, in Taiwan, Australia has the "Australia Office" [0] which is essentially an embassy in all but name. Other countries have similar things. 0: http://australia.org.tw/tpei/home.html

US as well.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#100

Post by _0w8t »

captainmuon wrote: post #51

International "meta"-law is so ridiculous. I mean the customary rules concerning recognition of states, embassies, passports [1], etc.. If I was ruler of a small country, I would say "of course we won't recognize Taiwan. We will foobar them. They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah ." (which de facto will be exactly the same thing) [1] Concerning passports, no matter how radically different states are, the US,…

Lenin did get troubles in 1917 with border crossings and accepted contribution from Germany to get a safe pass to Russia. German government was interested in getting political emmigrants from Russia to return to the Motherland. They hoped it will destabilize political situation in Russia and weaken the country. The plan worked...
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