Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

sentinel.tw

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 158 posts

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#51

Post by captainmuon »

International "meta"-law is so ridiculous. I mean the customary rules concerning recognition of states, embassies, passports [1], etc..

If I was ruler of a small country, I would say "of course we won't recognize Taiwan. We will foobar them. They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah." (which de facto will be exactly the same thing)

[1] Concerning passports, no matter how radically different states are, the US, the Soviet Union, North Korea, the Vatican, one thing they can all agree on is that people have a "nationality" and must carry a "passport" when going over borders, the passport has a certain size and spaces for "visas", etc.. It really makes me consider how "radical" a state is if it partakes in this global system. Especially interesting, if you remember that a few centuries ago, none of this existed at all. In history lessions in school, I wondered how Lenin could travel through all of europe unhampered when he was fleeing from the tsarists. Well, there were only little borders or passports as we know them now around.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#52

Post by MagnumOpus »

klunger wrote: post #41

I live in Norway. There has been pressure for some time on the government to do this because of the salmon exports. Fishing is not as big as oil, but it is still an important part of the economy here. Losing China as a customer meant bad news for a lot of folks in the fishing industry here. Also, since Norway is trying (unsuccessfully so far, but still they are trying) to lessen dependence on oil, this loss mattered…

> Fishing is not as big as oil, but it is still an important part of the economy

Meh. It employs 7k-10k people and contributes 0.7% of the economy. That is chickenfeed, and a particularly dumb thing to give up their principles over - particularly because processed fish are a fungible commodity and could be sold for the same price outside of China.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#53

Post by Kurtz79 »

doktrin wrote: post #49
mistermann wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why everyone laughed at England for Brexit but has seemingly no opinion on Norway, it seems illogical.

That comparison seems a bit off to me. The UK is more than 10x the size of all EEA members combined. The EEA exists / works because its members are largely peripheral. The UK by contrast is a regional superpower. On this basis alone - particularly when accounting for Brussels' massive bruised ego - it was always a bit unrealistic to expect a neat and tidy new EEA-style trade agreement between the UK and the EU. Not o…

"The UK is more than 10x the size of all EEA members combined. The EEA exists / works because its members are largely peripheral."

My guess is that by EEA you refer to those members that are not already part of the EU, although technically the EEA includes both EU members and countries with a special agreement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#54

Post by avar »

vidarh wrote: post #24
avar wrote: post #11

An interesting detail left out of the article is that Norway's neighbor Iceland ended up signing a free-trade agreement with China in 2013, both Norway and Iceland had negotiations underway in 2010 when China broke ties with Norway. Norway and Iceland are both EEA members, effectively with one foot in the EU, Iceland was the first European country to sign such an agreement with China. Norway and Iceland having free-t…

Norway at least have no current interest in EU membership. Support for EU membership has for a long time been so low (last year polls indicated 71% no, compared to an almost even result in the '94 referendum) that there's no prospect of another EU referendum anytime soon.

Norway and Iceland don't need to become full EU members for a China FTA creating conflicts between them and the EU. There's already overlap between products covered under Iceland's FTA with China and its FTA with the EU/EEA, but in practice it doesn't matter much because any gains from lower import duties are negated by expensive shipping from Iceland.

If Norway signs a similar agreement an EEA country with open land borders with the EU will have a FTA with China. At that point the EU would either need to never liberalize certain trade with the EEA least Norway become a shipping and distribution hub for Chinese goods into the EU, or accept that to get closer integration with Norway and the other EEA members.

There has been increasing liberalization of trade between the EU and EEA members, just last month the EU and Iceland agreed to drop almost all import duties on agricultural products[1].

In addition to all of that, with global warming gearing up the Northeast Passage[2] might become a viable shipping route between China and Europe, at that point shipping from China to Norway will be the shortest shipping route between China and Europe by far. Sailing from China to Europe via the NEP to Norway cuts time at sea and fuel consumption by more than half compared to going via the Suez Canal.

1. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20170911IPR...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Passage

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#55

Post by dak1 »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #5

Which in fact, is what most countries in the world signed up for. Also, it is a prerequisite for any country to even establish ANY formal diplomatic relationship with China[1]. It is almost certain Norway government has acknowledged this way back then through some bilateral treaty, and this time it is simply a reiteration. TL;DR:this is no news https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy#Diplomatic_re...

The US has never recognized the One China policy or China's claim over Taiwan. Instead, the US merely acknowledges China's position.

Of course, as a superpower, you have a little bit more negotiating leverage.

However, China's only been successful at bullying countries into recognizing some of its more absurd positions because it has negotiated on bilateral bases, where in almost every case China holds significantly more relative economic clout.

If the US, the EU, the UK, Canada, Japan, and Australia collectively took a position and agreed to provide support for any country that was individually attacked or sanctioned by China for its position, then you'd probably see a much more restrained policy response from China (although their rhetoric would likely be quite loud).

We've known for years that China's foreign policy has largely consisted of "salami slicing" — pressing hard for small concessions that cumulatively result in dramatic changes to international norms, and in the past states engaging in such behavior have been met with a strong and united international response, but for numerous reasons, the reaction to China still remains quite muted.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#56

Post by vinceguidry »

captainmuon wrote: post #51

International "meta"-law is so ridiculous. I mean the customary rules concerning recognition of states, embassies, passports [1], etc.. If I was ruler of a small country, I would say "of course we won't recognize Taiwan. We will foobar them. They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah ." (which de facto will be exactly the same thing) [1] Concerning passports, no matter how radically different states are, the US,…

> If I was ruler of a small country, I would say "of course we won't recognize Taiwan. We will foobar them. They don't get an embassy, but they get a blah." (which de facto will be exactly the same thing)

That might not be a smart move. Small nations get a lot out of banding together and acting as a bloc. If you foobar Taiwan, it might freeze you out of diplomatic channels that are more important to you than wanking off China.

Plus, you don't have to kowtow to China when you have the US around. If you're really lucky, you'll rate a US military base and watch your economy take off. Sadly, if the Trump-ites get their wish, the US won't be much of an alternative for much longer.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#57

Post by Geekette »

Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway, which positions itself as egalitarian and goes the extra mile in various areas such as excluding certain companies from investment by its global sovereign fund on ethical grounds[1].

This was also chilling to read: "And when the Dalai Lama was invited to Norway in 2014 by the Norwegian Nobel Committee to celebrate his receiving the Nobel Peace Prize 25 years earlier, conservative Prime Minister Erna Solberg refused to meet with him, as did every single member of Solberg’s government. Due to warnings from China, His Holiness was not even allowed in to the Norwegian Parliament’s formal reception room, despite the room being empty during the time of his visit."

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#58

Post by dis-sys »

dak1 wrote: post #55
oh-kumudo wrote: post #5

Which in fact, is what most countries in the world signed up for. Also, it is a prerequisite for any country to even establish ANY formal diplomatic relationship with China[1]. It is almost certain Norway government has acknowledged this way back then through some bilateral treaty, and this time it is simply a reiteration. TL;DR:this is no news https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy#Diplomatic_re...

The US has never recognized the One China policy or China's claim over Taiwan. Instead, the US merely acknowledges China's position. Of course, as a superpower, you have a little bit more negotiating leverage. However, China's only been successful at bullying countries into recognizing some of its more absurd positions because it has negotiated on bilateral bases, where in almost every case China holds significantly…

> If the US, the EU, the UK, Canada, Japan, and Australia collectively took a position and agreed to provide support for any country that was individually attacked or sanctioned by China for its position, then you'd probably see a much more restrained policy response from China (although their rhetoric would likely be quite loud).

cold war version 2? nice try.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#59

Post by oytis »

gambiting wrote: post #22
ekianjo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you are not. They can decide to live without it.

Ha! Now that would be something. So China is not forcing Norway because Norway can just choose to not trade with China? That's some extremely bizzare logic there.

I think it depends on whether you believe in free trade or not. If you think that every country's business has a right to make deals with any other country's business then Chinese government is depraving Norvegian fishers from what is rightfully theirs and is "forcing" Norwegian government to support their claims on Taiwan. If on the contrary you believe that every government has a right to establish any rules for external trade relationships it likes, then it's more like a free market. Either you buy access to Chinese consumers for recogition of Chinese claims for Taiwan or you don't, it's your choise.

Re: China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy

#60

Post by mamon »

danmaz74 wrote: post #46
mistermann wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why everyone laughed at England for Brexit but has seemingly no opinion on Norway, it seems illogical.

Norway is part of the single market (including free movement of people) and benefits from it, so, what they did is completely different from what the UK is going to do. But, most importantly, it's much much more disruptive to first join and then pull out that not joining at all.

So basicaly Norway got itself the best possible deal: all benefits of EU membership without any of the downsides (e.g. common currency or political correctnes bullshit).
Post reply on HN