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The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

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Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but they are very different scenarios. Up until mid 2000's it seemed as though Russia was coming along. Putin did a major pivot, or rather, 'major expansion of his authority' during the Obama years. Future historians will maybe give us the answers ...

China was going to come around any time now, too. Everybody expected that economic growth = growth of democracy = growth of free speech.

It's a question that really hasn't been answered yet, to be honest.

If you look at the top 50 countries by GDP per capita, most of them still do have a relatively high degree of freedom (in speech, press, etc.) compared to the world average. (The exceptions tend to be authoritarian regimes with oil, but with "peak oil demand" being a possibility in the long term, the long term future of this position is uncertain, in my opinion).

Nothing has changed in this regard. China has risen far economically and is still rising today. But by the GDP per capita statistic they still rank roughly on par with the world average (in the 70s rank). Russia's probably the strongest authoritarian economy that is not hugely dependent on oil (although it's still a decent chunk of it), but as far as GDP per capita goes they've been treading water lately.

Correlation is not causation, of course, so it's hard to tell whether this is a feature or a coincidence. I suppose we'll find out in the near future. I think it's still an open question whether China's policies increasingly interfere with the increasingly important knowledge economy, and end up hindering their growth. (Based on how China tiptoes around censorship of tech areas like Github, I suspect they are well aware of this possibility.)

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#92

The people of Hong Kong are hardly winning supporters within China. Much is made of the disdain that Hong Kong people have for Chinese mainlanders, but less is mentioned that it is equally true in reverse. There is a commonly held belief (which I haven't researched and thus don't know if true or not) that they didn't make nearly as much of a ruckus when they were under British colonial rule, when they were de facto s…

I am not arguing for British colonization, but were they second class citizens? I believe they were British Subjects and therefor entitled to all the rights of any other British subject, or at least that of British subjects in any other British Dependent Territory.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#93
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics. There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago. - A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university. - A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech. - The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up post…

>It's someone else's job to lead. i suppose it's my western point of view that makes me view this sentiment as blisteringly immature, if that is indeed what most chinese actually think. the stewardship of your country is always your job as a human being... even if you deny the responsibility, your country will act on your behalf, which means that you must control your leadership. if nobody else is fit to lead, it's y…

This strikes me as extremely confused. Chinese society is thousands of years old and has survived dynasty after dynasty, revolution after revolution. Perhaps their personal exit from politics is more earnest accumulated wisdom than blisteringly immature sentiment.

Contrast with your statement on stewardship, duty, and responsibility. What is behind this besides sentiment?

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#94
post #8

Highly recommend "10 Years" which captures how HK society views the near future when the Mainland presses their influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) This is allegedly caused China to block Apple iTunes after carrying "10 Years" in their catalog. http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ib...

> captures how HK society views I'm not sure if you realize that is a work of fiction based on one person's opinion, which hardly reflects the view of the "HK society" that you so grandiosely claimed. Should I take the Hunger Games seriously as capturing how Western society views the near future?

little trivia re Western: Hunger games is a remake of the Japanese movie Battle Royale based on the book by Japanese author :)

(but of course not arguing with Hunger Games movie itself as a very western movie with very western visuals, I understand what you mean)

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. China can go ban github or something if they get upset over "foreign intervention". Then they will suffer all the economic damages that comes from that. The reason to do something like this is PRECISELY because it makes those who do not support "western liberal values" upset.

But it also looks like a western person showed up and messed with their system, thereby purposefully sabotaging them and trying to get services blocked to the average Chinese?

Sabotaging a service by posting things on github that china doesn't like?

Seriously. Thats what this is about. People posting true stuff on the internet about china. I am not going to tiptoe around stuff like that, lol.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#96
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/... People help people, while nationalists are off somewhere in their own heads. > Try to talk to Chinese people and understand their perspective first. And that is? They're happy to be unfree, and think everybody else in the world only cares about their own problems, divided by nationali…

> And that is? They're happy to be unfree Just because you love healthy food doesn't mean you go around on the street shoving salad in people's mouths. > You said a lot, but not one word about your own, personal perspective. If I asked other Chinese people He said: > Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Which I…

> Just because you love healthy food doesn't mean you go around on the street shoving salad in people's mouths.

It's not a personal lifestyle choice or "culture". All human babies get born with a lot of curiosity and vitality. Some get broken and develop a pathological need for external validation to compensate something that never can compensate, instead of a grounding from which they can cooperate (and yes, that can mean following commands sometimes, but there's still an adult and a slave way of going about that, and if you were to say being a slave is a lifestyle choice then I'd just decide eating slaves is my lifestyle choice). That's not a matter of taste as far as I can tell, and if they defend their stunted development they by definition attack what I consider mental health, muddling it into some kind of thing nobody gets to have an opinion on until laws are broken. Not doing that. I see what I see, if you don't like what I have to say say something you think is better, but don't think I care about numbers of people. So far, I heard only "most people are happy". Not even "they are happy because", and not a PEEP how that outweighs those who are persecuted. It's literally just pointing to a blob. That's also something I see, and it's a sickness. Nothing to do with China, it's everywhere. But it's foolish in China, too.

There were people who got along fine in the GDR, too. I don't really blame them, I don't want to know how I would rate under such a regime. But really, when I want to know what the underbelly of the GDR was like, I don't ask them first, and certainly I wouldn't dream of only asking them.

Yeah, it's all subjective but that also gains us nothing because the subjective feelings of a billion Chinese don't outweigh my own subjective feelings. If they can't articulate why they feel that way, and can't interact with further responses to that, that doesn't surprise me at all.

You're basically saying -- maybe you don't want to say that, but that's what all this means, that's what matters in this -- it's good the people in the article and others are in jail or worse. Because to say otherwise would be "forcing my preferences on others"... how dare you, really. This isn't about whether someone likes the New Kids on the Block or Take That more. A million people who just go along to get along are not worth one person in jail for trying to be an individual. And you don't get to shove jail bars in their face because you can't stand words, even though you're so sloppy with those, too.

> Which I'm pretty sure you can interpret as

Yeah, I can, if I pretend "majority of people in China" means "me and my friends". But I can also read it as it's written, as opposed to sentences like "I think X because of Y".

> Unless you country is void of any problems or internal conflict, you've missed the point.

Not only did I not missed it, I addressed it. It's an invalid criticism in my books. A person isn't allowed to only speak up about anything in another country unless their country is "void of any problems" -- what would that even mean? That's like saying you can't write using any letters but square circles. That's not a point, it's just sophistry.

And as a bonus, it would also mean a person from $X doesn't get to criticize a person from $X for criticizing $X unless their country is perfect. Be HN US centric or international, it certainly is not within the great Firewall of China, right? So wouldn't a Chinese person make their country perfect and everybody in it immortal before ever criticizing a non-Chinese person? As I said, I find those demands completely arbitrary and void. But if some thinks they're valid, they should heed them themselves.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. China can go ban github or something if they get upset over "foreign intervention". Then they will suffer all the economic damages that comes from that. The reason to do something like this is PRECISELY because it makes those who do not support "western liberal values" upset.

>What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. If you're on the internet, then you can be targeted by anyone across the world, no matter where you live. Psyops/social engineering, identity theft, DDoS, doxxing, blackmail...

Oh no, china is going to come after me for posting information about them on the internet that they don't like!

Oh no, my anonymous github account will be hacked!

Seriously, this shit doesn't happen. There are too many people doing too many things in the world for a government across the world to do much of anything to anyone.

I am not ever going to live my life in fear of something dumb, like that. I am going to criticize and offend whatever world governments deserve to be offended.

If they don't like it, they can send their secret james bond assassins after me for posting stuff on the internet that hurt their feelings.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#98
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing factual information to people is in no way intervening in the domestic affairs of another country.

Just like Russia in the recent US election cycle? Or is their propaganda and influence over a country somehow different?

[deleted]

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#99
post #92

The people of Hong Kong are hardly winning supporters within China. Much is made of the disdain that Hong Kong people have for Chinese mainlanders, but less is mentioned that it is equally true in reverse. There is a commonly held belief (which I haven't researched and thus don't know if true or not) that they didn't make nearly as much of a ruckus when they were under British colonial rule, when they were de facto s…

I am not arguing for British colonization, but were they second class citizens? I believe they were British Subjects and therefor entitled to all the rights of any other British subject, or at least that of British subjects in any other British Dependent Territory.

Does a British subject have less rights than a British citizen / non-subject in that colony (e.g., the administrators)?

EDIT: I asked this half rhetorically. Although I don't have citations to back it up, my impression is that natives who were colonial subjects didn't generally fare well. You may be able to argue minutae.

EDIT 2: you ask a fair question, but I couldn't help but be reminded of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIvYWUVB1Ig :)

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China was going to come around any time now, too. Everybody expected that economic growth = growth of democracy = growth of free speech.

It's a question that really hasn't been answered yet, to be honest. If you look at the top 50 countries by GDP per capita, most of them still do have a relatively high degree of freedom (in speech, press, etc.) compared to the world average. (The exceptions tend to be authoritarian regimes with oil, but with "peak oil demand" being a possibility in the long term, the long term future of this position is uncertain, in…

You are outlining a problem instead of solution.

It's likely that China is not going high-income. It's obvious that India is not going high-income. It's apparent that Russia isn't going to be high-income either. Same for Iran, Indonesia, Philippines. So are we headed towards a planet which is mostly authoritarian, and in which most of GDP is produced in authoritarian countries?

Won't islands of democracy become fewer and further between? It seems that Democracy became much more expensive not unlike real estate and college are, and now a lot of communities can't afford it still.

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