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The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

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Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#71

Post by nradov »

richardknop wrote: post #37
ashleycole wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly too scared to do it. Not because I worry I'll be known as the guy who got GitHub banned in China (presumably after the rest of the world had to suffer from the inaccessibility caused by DDOS attacks that would likely last weeks (I mean the DDOS would last weeks, not the inaccessibility)), but because I worry the Chinese government would retaliate on me. I agree that many Chinese don't share these values…

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

Providing factual information to people is in no way intervening in the domestic affairs of another country.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#72

Post by Jonnax »

paradite wrote: post #54
virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

It's funny that you comment on the story of someone being jailed for being an activist with essentially "shut up it's none of your business"

The idea of taking care of your own backyard seems pretty similar to the old Soviet Union deflection whenever they were met with criticism:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Many countries have issues, people should be able to criticise even if their own situations aren't perfect.

You talk about the majority position. But what about these minorities? Do they feel the same way?

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#73

Post by zipwitch »

richardknop wrote: post #37
ashleycole wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly too scared to do it. Not because I worry I'll be known as the guy who got GitHub banned in China (presumably after the rest of the world had to suffer from the inaccessibility caused by DDOS attacks that would likely last weeks (I mean the DDOS would last weeks, not the inaccessibility)), but because I worry the Chinese government would retaliate on me. I agree that many Chinese don't share these values…

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

Equating invasions, bombings, and direct material support for local factions to "make some objective history available to people who want to read it" is extremely disingenuous.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#74

Post by vetinari »

barry-cotter wrote: post #60
nailer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any. Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. * * Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for…

> Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty. Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong. And the PRC signed a treaty with the U.K., and the U.K.’s signature on a treaty is dirt. They guaranteed the indivisibility and…

> They guaranteed the indivisibility and independence of Cyprus and did nothing when the Greeks invaded,

Turks, not Greeks

> they guaranteed Ukraine’s borders along with Russia and the USA

The Ukraine situation has much more nuance than you give credit for.

> and never trust the U.K. or USA.

As history shows, every superpower has interests, not friends.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#75

Post by rootlocus »

musage wrote: post #65
paradite wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

> Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/... People help people, while nationalists are off somewhere in their own heads. > Try to talk to Chinese people and understand their perspective first. And that is? They're happy to be unfree, and think everybody else in the world only cares about their own problems, divided by nationali…

> And that is? They're happy to be unfree

Just because you love healthy food doesn't mean you go around on the street shoving salad in people's mouths.

> You said a lot, but not one word about your own, personal perspective. If I asked other Chinese people

He said:

> Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to.

Which I'm pretty sure you can interpret as being how he and his immediate peers feel.

> I did take care of my backyard.

Unless you country is void of any problems or internal conflict, you've missed the point. Your backyard is your own government not your own appreciation of yourself.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#76

Post by baybal2 »

virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

>I have no idea how to help.

Fund training of activists

Work on finding safe routes to deliver arms and munitions. In 10 years, all of that will be handy.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#77

Post by jorvi »

theyregreat wrote: post #49
saucymew wrote: post #8

Highly recommend "10 Years" which captures how HK society views the near future when the Mainland presses their influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) This is allegedly caused China to block Apple iTunes after carrying "10 Years" in their catalog. http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ib...

China also affects Hollywood movies whom self-censor in order to not offend Chinese censors.

Games as well. It's rumored that Call of Duty MW2 originally had China as antagonist.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#78

Post by abiox »

srcmap wrote: post #62
TeMPOraL wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people you're trying to educate don't have the same values as you, and they don't really see American intervention into local affairs as benevolent and virtuous. Compare all the recent outrage caused by media stories that put the words "Facebook" and "Russia" in the single sentence. Messing with social media of another country is fun until you find yourself on the receiving end, then suddenly it's scandalous.

Like two teenagers arguing on school yard, the Russian can easily said "you started first": http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1...

technically that happened ~10 years before the cold war ended. at that time, both sides were understood to be engaged in various less-than-friendly activities.

post-cold war happenings are things worth focusing on, imo.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#79

Post by eyedeally »

saucymew wrote: post #8

Highly recommend "10 Years" which captures how HK society views the near future when the Mainland presses their influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) This is allegedly caused China to block Apple iTunes after carrying "10 Years" in their catalog. http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ib...

> captures how HK society views

I'm not sure if you realize that is a work of fiction based on one person's opinion, which hardly reflects the view of the "HK society" that you so grandiosely claimed. Should I take the Hunger Games seriously as capturing how Western society views the near future?

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#80

Post by marcosdumay »

nick32m wrote: post #26
ashleycole wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say there's one non-violent way to fight back that could significantly hurt China. Host an open source repo on GitHub that highlights China's suppressed history, and use QQ/WeChat/Weibo/etc to spread it to Chinese locals. Do the same for Reddit, and every other western service that isn't blocked in China. (It would likely also help to leave 1-2 star app/play store reviews of WeChat and mention the fact that all p…

I think they could block that Github repository/repositories but not the entire Github. Also I don't want them to DDOS Github and affect other uses. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9275041

HTTPS makes it impossible to block only part of the site. At least if they don't push their certs onto the population.
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