The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders • Hacker News Board

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#51

Post by turk184 » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 12:32 PM UTC

richardknop wrote: post #37

ashleycole wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly too scared to do it. Not because I worry I'll be known as the guy who got GitHub banned in China (presumably after the rest of the world had to suffer from the inaccessibility caused by DDOS attacks that would likely last weeks (I mean the DDOS would last weeks, not the inaccessibility)), but because I worry the Chinese government would retaliate on me. I agree that many Chinese don't share these values…

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

I don't really care if they share my "western liberal values" because I sure as hell don't share their beat-down, slave-like eastern values! They want to be drones, fine, but we aren't going down to their level.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#52

Post by SolaceQuantum » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 12:48 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #42

richardknop wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. China can go ban github or something if they get upset over "foreign intervention". Then they will suffer all the economic damages that comes from that. The reason to do something like this is PRECISELY because it makes those who do not support "western liberal values" upset.

But it also looks like a western person showed up and messed with their system, thereby purposefully sabotaging them and trying to get services blocked to the average Chinese?

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#53

Post by nailer » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 12:49 PM UTC

richardknop wrote: post #37

ashleycole wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly too scared to do it. Not because I worry I'll be known as the guy who got GitHub banned in China (presumably after the rest of the world had to suffer from the inaccessibility caused by DDOS attacks that would likely last weeks (I mean the DDOS would last weeks, not the inaccessibility)), but because I worry the Chinese government would retaliate on me. I agree that many Chinese don't share these values…

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

> See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East.

The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any.

Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. *

* Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#54

Post by paradite » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 12:53 PM UTC

virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us.

Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending.

Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to.

Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Please take care of your own backyard, before thinking of cleaning up other people's backyard."

Every country has its own problems, US, Spain, UK and China. Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? Do you see people from US offering to help self-determination problem in Spain?

Don't assume you have the moral high ground and Chinese people need your help. Try to talk to Chinese people and understand their perspective first.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#55

Post by terminalcommand » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 12:54 PM UTC

ashleycole wrote: post #24

virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

I'd say there's one non-violent way to fight back that could significantly hurt China. Host an open source repo on GitHub that highlights China's suppressed history, and use QQ/WeChat/Weibo/etc to spread it to Chinese locals. Do the same for Reddit, and every other western service that isn't blocked in China. (It would likely also help to leave 1-2 star app/play store reviews of WeChat and mention the fact that all p…

Github and Google services were once blocked in Turkey for political reasons. Even ATMs couldn't fetch updates because they relied on Github. When people started to realize the situation, github and google services were unblocked in a day.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#56

Post by alexasmyths » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 12:56 PM UTC

angry_octet wrote: post #46

richardknop wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but those territories were not ceded voluntarily. It was because they lost the war so as in any war, the defeated nation had to give something up. It would be different if HK was given to British as part of some deal reached by diplomacy which was not enforced as a consequence of lost war. Then you could perhaps argue that UK could keep it for perpetuity.

This is a modern re-interpretation of inter-state conflict. In the past it was widely accepted that states could resolve disputes via war. By that standard, the UK could indeed keep HK indefinitely. A post-WWI agreement, called the Kellog-Briand Pact, sets the state for multilaterism, and outlaws war for conquest. This later develops into non-recognition of illegal conquests, war crimes, etc. So, in contrast to HK, T…

" But at the moment China is too rich, and Tibet to inconsequential, "

This is it.

When I was in Cali 1997-2003 - 'Tibet' was all the rage.

Hollywood, popular opinion, documentaries etc. etc..

Then about the mid-2000s', 'Tibet' was snuffed out as a 'popular concern'.

There were quite a number of big business people/CEO's whispering about Tibet as a 'cause' - but they shut up pretty quick.

China has very effectively divided and conquered Western leaders who speak with 1000' voices (i.e. politicians, CEO's, academics) and even played nations against one another.

They have very effectively dangled the 'we have 1 Billion consumers carrot' in front of everyone and have them all kow-towing (pun intended) to get a juicy slice, but it never quite happens.

It's amazing how much indirect influence a coordinated attempt to attack an issue can have.

I remember the Dalai Lama used to even be a big name in the press, we hardly hear about him any more. Many, long tentacles ...

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#57

Post by MisterPC » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 12:59 PM UTC

richardknop wrote: post #39

khuey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong Island and Kowloon were ceded by the Qing Dynasty in perpetuity. The New Territories were leased (Boundary Street being the dividing line). Even with the New Territories though HK is dependent on the mainland for things like fresh water, so some accommodation with the PRC was going to have to be reached regardless.

Yes but those territories were not ceded voluntarily. It was because they lost the war so as in any war, the defeated nation had to give something up. It would be different if HK was given to British as part of some deal reached by diplomacy which was not enforced as a consequence of lost war. Then you could perhaps argue that UK could keep it for perpetuity.

This always seemed a bit strange. Provoke a nation into war (e.g. Britain with the opium wars, America when they wanted to annex California) and you get to keep the land you took, but if you didn't use violence to get the land you have to give it back.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#58

Post by paradite » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:02 PM UTC

ashleycole wrote: post #24

virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

I'd say there's one non-violent way to fight back that could significantly hurt China. Host an open source repo on GitHub that highlights China's suppressed history, and use QQ/WeChat/Weibo/etc to spread it to Chinese locals. Do the same for Reddit, and every other western service that isn't blocked in China. (It would likely also help to leave 1-2 star app/play store reviews of WeChat and mention the fact that all p…

I thank you for having good intention, but please do research properly, understand the bias and perspective from each article that you read, and make a judgement only after you have considered all sides of the argument.

Do rush to spread information that you think is true just because you read it from the Internet and China is bad.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#59

Post by nailer » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:03 PM UTC

paradite wrote: post #54

virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics.

There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago.

- A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university.

- A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech.

- The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up posters the mainland Chinese girl can destroy them

- The HK girl says that the mainland Chinese girl can put up her own posters if she wishes.

In mainland China, the view is: that the Chinese girl speaks better English than the HK girl and makes an excellent point about how she's allowed to tear down the posters if the other girl can put them up because that's what free speech means.

This isn't ironic, it's what people think and that's why the video was popular: because the mainland girl spoke great English, made what seems like a good point, and defended Chinese integrity.

Close friend mentions that re: democracy, the people don't have any will at all: they don't really engage with politics. It's someone else's job to lead. You'd want to engage with running the country as much as being a firefighter or running the sewers.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#60

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:09 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #53

richardknop wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

> See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any. Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. * * Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for…

> Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty.

Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong.

And the PRC signed a treaty with the U.K., and the U.K.’s signature on a treaty is dirt. They guaranteed the indivisibility and independence of Cyprus and did nothing when the Greeks invaded, they guaranteed Ukraine’s borders along with Russia and the USA. Two things are always true in international relations; never give up your nukes and never trust the U.K. or USA.