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The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
41–50 of 146 posts
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm honestly too scared to do it. Not because I worry I'll be known as the guy who got GitHub banned in China (presumably after the rest of the world had to suffer from the inaccessibility caused by DDOS attacks that would likely last weeks (I mean the DDOS would last weeks, not the inaccessibility)), but because I worry the Chinese government would retaliate on me. I agree that many Chinese don't share these values…
As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…
What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about.
China can go ban github or something if they get upset over "foreign intervention". Then they will suffer all the economic damages that comes from that.
The reason to do something like this is PRECISELY because it makes those who do not support "western liberal values" upset.
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#43Everyone knew it would happen and nothing can really be done (see Tibet). No one will start a trade or real war with China . They have veto power in UN ad that makes them powerful. So reality sets in. Treaties and agreements can be enforced only with smaller nations.
I think there needs to be a discussion about their WTO "market economy" status (for different reasons though)
>> I think there needs to be a discussion about their WTO "market economy" status (for different reasons though)
Go right ahead--if you have nothing better to do.... http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/money+talks
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#44We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.
I think the common understanding before 2000 was that as China developed, it would open up and 'have no choice' but to gradually move towards liberalization and democracy. That was actually the plan.
Same with Russia. Both cases just prove that connivance for authoritarian regimes only strengthens them.
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd say there's one non-violent way to fight back that could significantly hurt China. Host an open source repo on GitHub that highlights China's suppressed history, and use QQ/WeChat/Weibo/etc to spread it to Chinese locals. Do the same for Reddit, and every other western service that isn't blocked in China. (It would likely also help to leave 1-2 star app/play store reviews of WeChat and mention the fact that all p…
Before you(or anyone else) commits to this plan, consider that your point of view may not be shared by the chinese people themselves. Your activism may have a negative effect for a variety of reasons - the people you're trying to educate don't have the same values as you, and they don't really see American intervention into local affairs as benevolent and virtuous.
> the people you're trying to educate don't have the same values as you, and they don't really see American intervention into local affairs as benevolent and virtuous.
Compare all the recent outrage caused by media stories that put the words "Facebook" and "Russia" in the single sentence. Messing with social media of another country is fun until you find yourself on the receiving end, then suddenly it's scandalous.
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hong Kong Island and Kowloon were ceded by the Qing Dynasty in perpetuity. The New Territories were leased (Boundary Street being the dividing line). Even with the New Territories though HK is dependent on the mainland for things like fresh water, so some accommodation with the PRC was going to have to be reached regardless.
Yes but those territories were not ceded voluntarily. It was because they lost the war so as in any war, the defeated nation had to give something up. It would be different if HK was given to British as part of some deal reached by diplomacy which was not enforced as a consequence of lost war. Then you could perhaps argue that UK could keep it for perpetuity.
This is a modern re-interpretation of inter-state conflict. In the past it was widely accepted that states could resolve disputes via war. By that standard, the UK could indeed keep HK indefinitely.
A post-WWI agreement, called the Kellog-Briand Pact, sets the state for multilaterism, and outlaws war for conquest. This later develops into non-recognition of illegal conquests, war crimes, etc.
So, in contrast to HK, Tibet will never be part of China. But at the moment China is too rich, and Tibet to inconsequential, for anyone to make a big deal over it.
There was a great discussion of this on a recent Lawfare podcast: https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-oona-hathaway-an...
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#47We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.
Join Amnesty (UK) or Amnesty International (elsewhere). We put civil pressure on governments that imprison their citizens on issues of conscience.
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#48We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.
If it wasn't going to be China, it was going to be, and has already been somewhere else. Look at the labels on the clothes you wear, many aren't made in China.
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#49Highly recommend "10 Years" which captures how HK society views the near future when the Mainland presses their influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) This is allegedly caused China to block Apple iTunes after carrying "10 Years" in their catalog. http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ib...
China also affects Hollywood movies whom self-censor in order to not offend Chinese censors.
Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
#50Highly recommend "10 Years" which captures how HK society views the near future when the Mainland presses their influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) This is allegedly caused China to block Apple iTunes after carrying "10 Years" in their catalog. http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ib...
China also affects Hollywood movies whom self-censor in order to not offend Chinese censors.
That is correct. Instead of the west uplifting the world, we are instead abetting the worst and least common denominator for human rights all for money.