The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders • Hacker News Board

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#61

Post by paradite » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:15 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #59

paradite wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics. There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago. - A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university. - A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech. - The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up post…

Well, yes, I agree that Chinese people are somewhat lacking in critical thinking since so much policies are straight from the government and people just follow. It is very different from HK and US. In fact I think that's the main reason why the government's policies are so successful.

If more and more people are travelling abroad and absorbing this idea of free speech, the society would eventually transform and embrace the idea. However, critical thinking has to be there first, with majority of the people capable of making informed decisions, not like the reaction to the video you mentioned.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#62

Post by srcmap » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:28 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #45

Sacho wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before you(or anyone else) commits to this plan, consider that your point of view may not be shared by the chinese people themselves. Your activism may have a negative effect for a variety of reasons - the people you're trying to educate don't have the same values as you, and they don't really see American intervention into local affairs as benevolent and virtuous.

> the people you're trying to educate don't have the same values as you, and they don't really see American intervention into local affairs as benevolent and virtuous. Compare all the recent outrage caused by media stories that put the words "Facebook" and "Russia" in the single sentence. Messing with social media of another country is fun until you find yourself on the receiving end, then suddenly it's scandalous.

Like two teenagers arguing on school yard, the Russian can easily said "you started first":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1...

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#63

Post by wu-ikkyu » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:30 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #42

richardknop wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. China can go ban github or something if they get upset over "foreign intervention". Then they will suffer all the economic damages that comes from that. The reason to do something like this is PRECISELY because it makes those who do not support "western liberal values" upset.

>What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about.

If you're on the internet, then you can be targeted by anyone across the world, no matter where you live. Psyops/social engineering, identity theft, DDoS, doxxing, blackmail...

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#64

Post by alexasmyths » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:36 PM UTC

kbart wrote: post #44

alexasmyths wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the common understanding before 2000 was that as China developed, it would open up and 'have no choice' but to gradually move towards liberalization and democracy. That was actually the plan.

Same with Russia. Both cases just prove that connivance for authoritarian regimes only strengthens them.

True, but they are very different scenarios.

Up until mid 2000's it seemed as though Russia was coming along.

Putin did a major pivot, or rather, 'major expansion of his authority' during the Obama years.

Future historians will maybe give us the answers ...

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#65

Post by musage » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:40 PM UTC

paradite wrote: post #54

virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

> Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/...

People help people, while nationalists are off somewhere in their own heads.

> Try to talk to Chinese people and understand their perspective first.

And that is? They're happy to be unfree, and think everybody else in the world only cares about their own problems, divided by nationality?

You said a lot, but not one word about your own, personal perspective. If I asked other Chinese people, would they also only tell me about yet other Chinese people? Then why bother?

Also note how you're not asking any questions yourself, either. You just assume others assume moral high ground and tell them, representative for all other Chinese citizens.

Even just one political prisoner, in China or any other country, makes the opinion of anyone who is "happy" in that country of rather secondary rank.

> In Chinese, there is a saying that "Please take care of your own backyard, before thinking of cleaning up other people's backyard."

I'm not an uptight corrupt goon, so for example I can make fun of the Chinese Communist Party and plenty of other politicians in plenty countries. I did take care of my backyard. I'm not responsible for what anyone else of $arbitrary_group_you_think_matters is doing, I'm responsible for what I'm doing. Criticize "my" country and I'll probably add to it, because of course I am critical of the things going on right under my nose. But defensive pouting? What for? Why would I need that?

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#66

Post by cryoshon » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:41 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #59

paradite wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics. There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago. - A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university. - A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech. - The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up post…

>It's someone else's job to lead.

i suppose it's my western point of view that makes me view this sentiment as blisteringly immature, if that is indeed what most chinese actually think.

the stewardship of your country is always your job as a human being... even if you deny the responsibility, your country will act on your behalf, which means that you must control your leadership.

if nobody else is fit to lead, it's your job.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#67

Post by nailer » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 1:50 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #60

nailer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any. Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. * * Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for…

> Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty. Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong. And the PRC signed a treaty with the U.K., and the U.K.’s signature on a treaty is dirt. They guaranteed the indivisibility and…

> Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong.

It's entirely possible PRC could collapse. High growth rates and widespread corruption could easily cause a financial crisis that turns into a political one.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#68

Post by paradite » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #66

nailer wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics. There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago. - A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university. - A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech. - The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up post…

>It's someone else's job to lead. i suppose it's my western point of view that makes me view this sentiment as blisteringly immature, if that is indeed what most chinese actually think. the stewardship of your country is always your job as a human being... even if you deny the responsibility, your country will act on your behalf, which means that you must control your leadership. if nobody else is fit to lead, it's y…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13203027

This summaries my points on the relationship between people and the government.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#69

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 2:06 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #59

paradite wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics. There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago. - A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university. - A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech. - The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up post…

I would be wary of deriving social conclusion from trends in social networks.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

#70

Post by thriftwy » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

alexasmyths wrote: post #64

kbart wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with Russia. Both cases just prove that connivance for authoritarian regimes only strengthens them.

True, but they are very different scenarios. Up until mid 2000's it seemed as though Russia was coming along. Putin did a major pivot, or rather, 'major expansion of his authority' during the Obama years. Future historians will maybe give us the answers ...

China was going to come around any time now, too.

Everybody expected that economic growth = growth of democracy = growth of free speech.