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The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders

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Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#81

Post by richardknop »

nailer wrote: post #53
richardknop wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

> See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any. Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. * * Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for…

> The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any.

They were ultimately military interventions but military solution is used always as last resort if you can't achieve your goal without it. West has been meddling in their domestic affairs and trying to influence these countries internally long before military invasions. And it continues to meddle and influence after war is over.

With Mubarak of course there was a lot of US involvement. Obama and Clinton supporter Muslim Brotherhood & Morsi heavily for some reason which ended in overthrowing of Mubarak and establishment of a theocratic state... which had to be then reversed in another revolution.

> Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. *

From their point of view HK and Taiwan are part of China. On Western maps it shows Taiwan as an independent country but mainland Chinese consider it integral part of China.

> * Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty.

That's true. But countries break promises when convenient including western democracies.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#82

Post by KekDemaga »

paradite wrote: post #54
virmundi wrote: post #5

We knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

As a US citizen, if the Chinese people are happy with their government (or at least not unhappy enough to revolt) then the Chinese people should have that government. If the Chinese people are unhappy with their government, then they should revolt and if sufficient momentum is built up in that regard, and we are asked, only then should we consider "helping" anyone. I'd hope the Chinese would treat our sovereignty with the same respect.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#83

Post by richardknop »

angry_octet wrote: post #46
richardknop wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but those territories were not ceded voluntarily. It was because they lost the war so as in any war, the defeated nation had to give something up. It would be different if HK was given to British as part of some deal reached by diplomacy which was not enforced as a consequence of lost war. Then you could perhaps argue that UK could keep it for perpetuity.

This is a modern re-interpretation of inter-state conflict. In the past it was widely accepted that states could resolve disputes via war. By that standard, the UK could indeed keep HK indefinitely. A post-WWI agreement, called the Kellog-Briand Pact, sets the state for multilaterism, and outlaws war for conquest. This later develops into non-recognition of illegal conquests, war crimes, etc. So, in contrast to HK, T…

> This is a modern re-interpretation of inter-state conflict. In the past it was widely accepted that states could resolve disputes via war. By that standard, the UK could indeed keep HK indefinitely.

By that standard PRC could send their military and take over Hong Kong and then keep it indefinitely. In a direct conflict UK would lose and they probably knew that which is why they left voluntarily.

> A post-WWI agreement, called the Kellog-Briand Pact, sets the state for multilaterism, and outlaws war for conquest. This later develops into non-recognition of illegal conquests, war crimes, etc.

This pact seems to be historically insignificant. US has been using war as an instrument of national policy quite frequently. Same for Russia and before that Soviet Union. And other countries. So why not China?

> So, in contrast to HK, Tibet will never be part of China. But at the moment China is too rich, and Tibet to inconsequential, for anyone to make a big deal over it.

Tibet is definitely a part of China though. For example, on Google Maps I don't see Tibet marked as a separate nation. It's part of China according to biggest online maps provider.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#85

Post by mortenjorck »

eyedeally wrote: post #79
saucymew wrote: post #8

Highly recommend "10 Years" which captures how HK society views the near future when the Mainland presses their influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) This is allegedly caused China to block Apple iTunes after carrying "10 Years" in their catalog. http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ib...

> captures how HK society views I'm not sure if you realize that is a work of fiction based on one person's opinion, which hardly reflects the view of the "HK society" that you so grandiosely claimed. Should I take the Hunger Games seriously as capturing how Western society views the near future?

Are you saying The Hunger Games isn't a valid, as well as popular, commentary on wealth inequality and Western militarism?

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#86

Post by eyedeally »

mortenjorck wrote: post #85
eyedeally wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> captures how HK society views I'm not sure if you realize that is a work of fiction based on one person's opinion, which hardly reflects the view of the "HK society" that you so grandiosely claimed. Should I take the Hunger Games seriously as capturing how Western society views the near future?

Are you saying The Hunger Games isn't a valid, as well as popular, commentary on wealth inequality and Western militarism?

No. I'm saying Hunger Games isn't a representation of how the "Western society" as a whole views the collective future.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#87

Post by fatjokes »

The people of Hong Kong are hardly winning supporters within China. Much is made of the disdain that Hong Kong people have for Chinese mainlanders, but less is mentioned that it is equally true in reverse.

There is a commonly held belief (which I haven't researched and thus don't know if true or not) that they didn't make nearly as much of a ruckus when they were under British colonial rule, when they were de facto second-class citizens. As such, the independence/pro-democracy movement is viewed as a Western-backed attempt to destabilize China, with supporters (generalized to the whole people of Hong Kong, depending on how many of them you believe support the movement) viewed as submissives to the West. (If you add in a racial dimension, where the Hong Kong people are Asians willing to submit to "whites" while fighting back against other Asians, adds to that disdain).

Any attempts to "help", as some on this thread have suggested, is only going to help affirm this belief and harden the mainland Chinese stance against Hong Kong.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#88

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

Jonnax wrote: post #72
paradite wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Plea…

It's funny that you comment on the story of someone being jailed for being an activist with essentially "shut up it's none of your business" The idea of taking care of your own backyard seems pretty similar to the old Soviet Union deflection whenever they were met with criticism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes Many countries have issues, people should be able to criticise even if their o…

> You talk about the majority position. But what about these minorities? Do they feel the same way?

Many countries don't have the obsession over multiculturalism that America seems to have. Their priority isn't to have a diverse population, but rather is to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible as quickly as possible, hence the focus on the majority of the population. A homogeneous culture has many benefits during growth, like lower interpersonal conflict. Concepts like democracy and freedom mean very little if the quality of life is low.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#89

Post by vetinari »

kbart wrote: post #44
alexasmyths wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the common understanding before 2000 was that as China developed, it would open up and 'have no choice' but to gradually move towards liberalization and democracy. That was actually the plan.

Same with Russia. Both cases just prove that connivance for authoritarian regimes only strengthens them.

In case of Russia, it would help, if it wasn't robbed during 90's.

So of course, anybody who stops the robbery is authoritarian then.

Re: The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders 

#90

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

nradov wrote: post #71
richardknop wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's…

Providing factual information to people is in no way intervening in the domestic affairs of another country.

Just like Russia in the recent US election cycle? Or is their propaganda and influence over a country somehow different?
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