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HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

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Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#211

Post by TeMPOraL »

katastic wrote: post #62
jwfxpr wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it would work, and the cost benefit ratio were there, people would adopt it quickly. That's what happens with just about everything else. Great point! Just like: * Betamax * HD DVD * Minidisc * Hoverboards * IPV6 * DNSSEC * PGP & PKI * Linux desktops * Dvorak keyboards * The metric system * Decimal time * [flavour-of-the-month programming language] * [flavour-of-the-month database] * [flavour-of-the-month cypher…

Actually, it's pretty simple. "Better" has to actually "be better ENOUGH" to warrant all of the retooling of existing systems. I've got plenty of clients who would happily run Windows 2003 ("it's paid for") if it weren't for changing standards that aren't compatible (newer TLS, Exchange, etc) and security breaches. They only upgrade because they have to. "E-mail is e-mail" to them. But if you sell them some magical n…

That only answers some of those examples.

It's pretty visible in tech that it's not actually the only (or main) reason, especially when you see companies continuously switching from one crappy tool to another. Tech is a fashion-driven industry; companies use what is hot and/or what everyone else is using. Both of those create a positive feedback loop that amplifies brief spikes in popularity (easily exploitable through marketing) beyond any reasonable proportion.

The worst thing is, though, that it kind of makes sense from the POV of management. The more popular something is, the less risk there is in using it, especially when the decisionmaker doesn't have enough knowledge to evaluate the options. Also, the more mainstream a given technology is, the cheaper and easier to replace programmers.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#212

Post by TeMPOraL »

ketzu wrote: post #106
hobofan wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A distributed web (including proper mesh networks) has the potential of changing the status quo from constantly worrying about data limits and "I don't have any wifi" to "normal" people having constant "internet" access everywhere they go. I think they don't care much about the underlying technology, but they will notice when some apps work faster and without a mobile data connection when others don't.

Couldn't people build webapps like this today by heavy caching and storing data locally?

In terms of caching, think of IPFS as making every node in the network also a dynamic CDN, with content automatically moving closer to the people who use it - including into your LAN.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#213

Post by TeMPOraL »

htns wrote: post #66
Asdfbla wrote: post #49

Why are distributed filesystems like IPFS so popular again these days ? Freenet has been around (and super niche) for close to 20 years soon. Is it because the Bitcoin hype has reinvigorated crypto-anarchists?

I've been wondering that too. There isn't much allure to it beyond "our hosting/CDN will be cheaper if we let the customers pay for it". If anything it weakens privacy a little, since any mean-spirited gremlin gets to snoop on who visits and hosts what.

Well, one allure for me is the fact that the topology of Internet is getting ridiculous. Bits between devices nearby travel halfway across the globe for no reason but centralized control over the data. When I watch a cool YouTube video and want to send it to my friend, who happens to be in the same network, he shouldn't need to download it all the way from Australia again - it should just travel over the LAN.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#214

Post by lgierth »

fingerguns wrote: post #199

IPFS is using Filecoin, which in itself is a questionable ICO. https://tokeneconomy.co/the-analysis-filecoin-doesnt-want-yo...

You got it the wrong way around - Filecoin will be built on top of IPFS, but IPFS itself works fine without Filecoin.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#215

Post by noam87 »

Semiapies wrote: post #189
noam87 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the internals of IPFS DHT implementation, but the whitepaper mentions Kadmelia and Coral. Coral tries to optimize for ping latency (you're not literally fetching from nearest geographical neighbor, I simplified to make a point). Unless I misunderstand your point, but honestly it seems like people here are engaging more in "gotcha" nay-saying than honest efforts of criticism... it would've taken you two m…

It's not a non-issue just because people boosting a technology say it is. Ever heard of timing attacks?

I have, but I'm no security expert so perhaps I'm not seeing something obvious. -- Do you have a specific attack in mind? Is it an insurmountable vulnerability?

If so you can just explain it (or report it).

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#216

Post by Spivak »

thinkloop wrote: post #202
Spivak wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One, furlong actually comes from "furrow length" which how long an ox could plow before tiring. The point isn't that the measurement is precise, the point is that it's useful. The unit has an intuitive and tangible meaning in the real world that let's people ballpark. This doesn't mean we should start doing precision work in furlongs but demanding that everyone switch away from measures that are still useful is silly…

If there is one thing that people know deep in their guts today, its how long an ox could plow before tiring.

Which is why nobody really uses furlongs anymore but there are plenty of other units that are still in use. One example I think we're all familiar is the 'Rack Unit' for servers (i.e 1U, 2U) where 1U is 44.45mm. I don't think there would be any additional clarity gained by saying, "I bought a few 88.9mm servers".

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#217

Post by blurbleblurble »

ycombinete wrote: post #204
blurbleblurble wrote: post #74

I need to comment because people are missing the point... there's nothing in this text that says the web won't need servers. Imagine that you and some friends want to launch a small local business and need to host a website. Instead of paying to host it "up in the cloud", why not plug a few raspberry pi's into the walls at each of your houses? Between that and also seeding it from your laptops, the site should have d…

Hey, is there a reason that you use both Resilio and Syncthing, instead of just the one?

I originally started using syncthing for own stuff. It works well for my backup needs

But the Android interface kinda stinks, so when I wanted to use it with "non-tech" people, I decided to just use Resilio instead. It's quite a bit more refined. I wish it was open source, but you can't have everything.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#218

Post by skinnymuch »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #206
ivanhoe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you still have all maintenance related problems? How do you upgrade a hard disk or memory, go to their home? What happens if their home net is down or slow, no one can visit the site? Back in the days I was running a few web servers from my office directly, and it's a lot of extra work that is just not worth it.

Who cares? The Internet is breaking all the time anyway. Every day at least one of the bigger / more important sites I visit has a temporary problem with something. Three days a week HN keeps returning CloudFlare errors to me. Even Facebook has some issues that break it every other week. The world isn't ending because of this, and it isn't going to end because the site I co-host with my other friend is down for the n…

Not denying you get these issues or errors with sites. But how come I never seem to have any issues with major sites. I do see cloudflare stuff. But never for a top 1000 site.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#219

Post by blurbleblurble »

Semiapies wrote: post #190
blurbleblurble wrote: post #74

I need to comment because people are missing the point... there's nothing in this text that says the web won't need servers. Imagine that you and some friends want to launch a small local business and need to host a website. Instead of paying to host it "up in the cloud", why not plug a few raspberry pi's into the walls at each of your houses? Between that and also seeding it from your laptops, the site should have d…

"there's nothing in this text that says the web won't need servers" That's, flatly, a lie. There's a whole passage in the middle about how needing servers is a weakness of HTTP that this gets beyond. Instead, we could put Raspberry Pis in our walls? We can do that now.

The article says that http is dependent on one server per resource, and that this is a weakness.

In a distributed web you need seeds. Whether they are called "servers", "peers", "devices", or "clients" is dependent on implementation and semantics. For the purpose of my comments I chose to call dedicated seeds "servers", because it made sense to me.

And yeah, we can do that now! I've even used an old cell phone with a busted touchscreen as a low power syncthing device. Mostly it was meant to relay notes between my phone and laptop if one or the other was sleeping or dead. It worked great. Eventually, I stopped depending on it, because I have a headless machine running now (a "server") that does the same thing.

All I had to do to migrate was share my syncthing directories with the server. It was a breeze. I didn't have to worry about configuring addresses or anything.

Also, the server is useful as a relay, but if my phone and laptop are both on, say if I'm working at the library or something, they just communicate directly. So I don't depend on the server in the same way.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#220

Post by iamnotlarry »

dane-pgp wrote: post #194
iamnotlarry wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have thought about this a bit lately. Social media can be a very convenient way to keep up to date with people, and to allow people to keep up to date with you. But it has real costs. I abandoned my Facebook account many years ago and refuse to set up a new one. As a result, it is difficult for my children to interact with me. They post their lives on Facebook, but they don't open that up to the public. So only spe…

This is why to solve the Facebook / social media silo problem, we really need to solve the web identity problem. The solution needs to allow identities which are "register once, use anywhere" across the web, and portable so that you can migrate to a different identity host/provider/implementation without losing all your accounts. Ideally these identities would also allow you to reveal as much or as little information…

I liked Mozilla's Persona (BrowserID) for the fact that it protected privacy from the 3rd party provider. You're asking for privacy protections from the site seeking identity authentication.

It's a fascinating idea to have some means of identity authentication where the party seeking to authenticate your identity doesn't have enough identity information to connect the dots, and the party providing authentication doesn't even know about the party seeking authentication.

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