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HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

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Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#61

Post by carolc »

projectant wrote: post #40
CryoLogic wrote: post #5

Obsolete? Maybe not yet. But I do think putting forth effort to improving distributed protocols like IPFS could be very helpful in preventing internet censorship like we have seen from Comcast, YouTube, etc. recently.

Exactly. It's like, Woah, hold your horses there. "Obsolete"? I don't think so. To what extent can this IPFS serve an API or a dynamic database at this point? To what extent will it ever be able to do that? I think HTTP/websockets is very good for these things. Static data is one thing, dynamic is a whole other story. It seems IPFS is just a new distributed way to archive data. So what? It doesn't help serve somethin…

Databases, and dynamic content in general, can be done with/on IPFS.

Take look at OrbitDB (https://github.com/orbitdb/orbit-db) - "Distributed peer-to-peer database for the decentralized web" or their blog post "Decentralized Real-Time Collaborative Documents - Conflict-free editing in the browser using js-ipfs and CRDTs" (https://blog.ipfs.io/30-js-ipfs-crdts.md).

And all that works in the browser without running a local IPFS in the background. That's pretty amazing imo.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#62

Post by katastic »

jwfxpr wrote: post #60
IncRnd wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how these things always work, by saying "it will work one day." If it would work, and the cost benefit ratio were there, people would adopt it quickly. That's what happens with just about everything else.

> If it would work, and the cost benefit ratio were there, people would adopt it quickly. That's what happens with just about everything else. Great point! Just like: * Betamax * HD DVD * Minidisc * Hoverboards * IPV6 * DNSSEC * PGP & PKI * Linux desktops * Dvorak keyboards * The metric system * Decimal time * [flavour-of-the-month programming language] * [flavour-of-the-month database] * [flavour-of-the-month cypher…

Actually, it's pretty simple.

"Better" has to actually "be better ENOUGH" to warrant all of the retooling of existing systems. I've got plenty of clients who would happily run Windows 2003 ("it's paid for") if it weren't for changing standards that aren't compatible (newer TLS, Exchange, etc) and security breaches. They only upgrade because they have to. "E-mail is e-mail" to them.

But if you sell them some magical new technology that promises to meet new features, like tons of data analysis tools and easily graphs and charts in a new version of CRM, they'll happily upgrade.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#63

Post by noam87 »

tscs37 wrote: post #58
noam87 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Even assuming all this, a hybrid approach of HTTP + IPFS (or DAT) is still better than what we have now, since IPFS is essentially a worldwide CDN for static files.(Sorry: an inter-planetary one.) - The content-addressing aspect makes it perfect for distributing commonly used libraries. - We already cache all this content locally. What a waste! Why do I have to fetch jQuery from fricking California when it's sittin…

>since IPFS is essentially a worldwide CDN for static files.(Sorry: an inter-planetary one.) Sorry but IPFS is interplanetary in the same way a Boeing 747 is capable of orbital flight. Last I checked IPFS will not tolerate minute long latencies and requires a bandwidth above several kilobits per second which would immediately disqualify it for anything farther than the moon. And I'm not sure it would work on the moon…

> Last I checked IPFS will not tolerate minute long latencies and requires a bandwidth above several kilobits per second. [...] It isn't hosted unless atleast one person keeps a copy online.

And the vacuum tubes in my Colossus might overheat at that rate too! -- Damn, you're right, we're just not smart enough to solve those problems.

---

edit:

> Does sarcasm prove your point?

Fair enough, sarcastic Parthian shot removed. I get overexcited sometimes.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#64

Post by hobofan »

chii wrote: post #57
neutronbits wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! What an ignorant view of technology adoption! Almost, every revolutionary technology you see today (right from radio and A/C current to personal computers and deep learning) did not work fine once upon a time. It is because people kept saying, "it will work one day", and continued working on them that we have these technologies making our life simpler these days.

true for revolutionary new technology. Not true for incremental technology that aims to replace an existing similar technology. Especially if the incremental tech is something that most "normal" people don't really care about (such as hosting content on the internet).

A distributed web (including proper mesh networks) has the potential of changing the status quo from constantly worrying about data limits and "I don't have any wifi" to "normal" people having constant "internet" access everywhere they go.

I think they don't care much about the underlying technology, but they will notice when some apps work faster and without a mobile data connection when others don't.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#65

Post by tscs37 »

noam87 wrote: post #63
tscs37 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>since IPFS is essentially a worldwide CDN for static files.(Sorry: an inter-planetary one.) Sorry but IPFS is interplanetary in the same way a Boeing 747 is capable of orbital flight. Last I checked IPFS will not tolerate minute long latencies and requires a bandwidth above several kilobits per second which would immediately disqualify it for anything farther than the moon. And I'm not sure it would work on the moon…

> Last I checked IPFS will not tolerate minute long latencies and requires a bandwidth above several kilobits per second. [...] It isn't hosted unless atleast one person keeps a copy online. And the vacuum tubes in my Colossus might overheat at that rate too! -- Damn, you're right, we're just not smart enough to solve those problems. --- edit: > Does sarcasm prove your point? Fair enough, sarcastic Parthian shot remo…

>And the vacuum tubes in my Colossus might overheat at that rate too! -- Damn, you're right, we're just not smart enough to solve those problems.

I was merely pointing out that it's not correct to call something interplanetary if it's not. It's mostly false advertising.

>Are those the ones that go whoosh?

Does sarcasm prove your point?

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#66

Post by htns »

Asdfbla wrote: post #49

Why are distributed filesystems like IPFS so popular again these days ? Freenet has been around (and super niche) for close to 20 years soon. Is it because the Bitcoin hype has reinvigorated crypto-anarchists?

I've been wondering that too. There isn't much allure to it beyond "our hosting/CDN will be cheaper if we let the customers pay for it". If anything it weakens privacy a little, since any mean-spirited gremlin gets to snoop on who visits and hosts what.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#67

Post by Karrot_Kream »

yeukhon wrote: post #46

So a couple questions even reading this... 1. The availability depends on the number of peers like BitTorrent? If so, and if no seed is available, how does one access the content, esp in the context of an intranet? 2. Any change to how we run infrastructure except not serving HTTP?

> The availability depends on the number of peers like BitTorrent? If so, and if no seed is available, how does one access the content, esp in the context of an intranet?

There's a concept called pinning which keeps files available in a local share. You can pay other people to keep it pinned for a long amount of time, and they usually charge for the size of the file.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#68

Post by angrygoat »

simplyluke wrote: post #23
setra wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can purchase a droplet on digital ocean than has gigabit and a terabyte of transfer every month for $5. A terabyte is more than enough content for me. I am sure most people could afford that to manage their interneting.

>I can purchase a droplet on digital ocean than has gigabit and a terabyte of transfer every month for $5 >I am sure most people could afford that to manage their interneting And before the spec has even seen real adoption, we've already seen it centralize into a few major providers. A bit tongue-in-cheek, but it's a real issue. HTTP isn't the reason things are centralizing so much as economies of scale and convenien…

Network infrastructure is also a powerful driver of centralisation.

I'd much rather host content from my home (and, living in a very sunny Australian city, power that with PV and battery storage at a low amortised cost) - but I can't, because the network to support that isn't there.

I get about 7Mb/s down and and 1Mb/s up - my link is highly asymmetric. When I finally get off ADSL and on to the new National Broadband Network, that'll still be asymmetric.

I can see why networks are built that way, given the current centralisation of infrastructure, but the build also reinforces centralisation.

Think back to 20 years ago when most business network connections, even for small business, were symmetric. Hosting stuff on-site (email servers, web servers, ...) was far more common.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#69

Post by akvadrako »

mgalka wrote: post #43
jlrbuellv wrote: post #18

It's kind of funny that the example link to a "permanent" object still returns a 404 ("ipfs resolve -r /ipns/QmTodvhq9CUS9hH8rirt4YmihxJKZ5tYez8PtDmpWrVMKP: Could not resolve name.") I totally want the web to magically be distributed too, but clearly not even the author is bothering to host their IPFS content anymore...

Funny? Yes. Relevant? No. The post makes the case for why IPFS should replace HTTP -- has nothing to do with how well the technology works right now in its infancy.

I'm pretty sure at this point in it's lifetime HTTP worked better than IPFS does now.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#70

Post by akvadrako »

Asdfbla wrote: post #49

Why are distributed filesystems like IPFS so popular again these days ? Freenet has been around (and super niche) for close to 20 years soon. Is it because the Bitcoin hype has reinvigorated crypto-anarchists?

Because it's more practical. Freenet was just too slow 10 years ago. Maybe it's better now, but it could never achieve IPFS speeds.
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