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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#221

Post by fauigerzigerk »

ino wrote: post #214
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to look at it is that the sovereign country of Spain has a right to split itself up in two countries. Therefore all Spaniards should have a say. Another way to look at it is that every sub-entity of any country has a right to unilaterally declare itself independent for whatever reason (often because it is wealthier). I think neither of these views is sufficient. We have to accept that this is a tricky questio…

How about the third way, where a region is increasingly unhappy with the central government (look at the election results in the past 20 years), and wants to have a legal option of getting out of the union if/when they start feeling opressed. People have been talking about this for decades and nothing has been done. How do you think people in Galicia and Basque Country are feeling now? Is this what should make them p…

Where do you draw the line so that not every wealthy region or city unhappy with its net tax payer status secedes from poorer parts of the country?

You say that the Catalonian people feel oppressed. By what standard is that actually the case though? As far as I know, Catalonia enjoys very far reaching autonomy within Spain.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#222

Post by JaumeGreen »

pipio21 wrote: post #106
627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Very simple. The idea was making the last normal elections an independence referendum, had independentist won. They lost. So they decided they would fly forward. Most of them, like Mas and Puigdemont were friends or partners of Puyol, who actually manage to steal hundreds of millions of euros, probably thousands, they are going to jail anyway. They have nothing to lose and lots to win. Puyol stole for 40 years withou…

There is no violence by catalan demostradors. You are simply lying with the usual Spanish centralist retoric.

Has Pujol stolen? Yes. Have PP and PSOE (Spanish centralist groups) stolen? Yes.

Are lots of catalan tired of being insulted, being told they are not important, being told they are insolidary, being told they speak a language too many? Yes.

This movement is not in favour of local thieves, it's not against Spain, it's against some attitudes by fascists, that unfortunately are in power.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#223

Post by mercer »

gambiting wrote: post #173
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you allow any region to declare independence then there will be thousands or maybe even more states. You say this like it's a bad thing. > Different provinces and regions are united into a country because this way they have more military power to defend themselves. Exactly. So there are many benefits for people to form larger groups, but please let them decide that for themselves. This kind of negates your first…

>> because people would recognise they are better off together I don't believe for a second that people will. There are groups of people who don't give a crap about "being better off" - they care about showing those damn Spanish/British/French/German/Polish/ what they think and being able to "finally decide for themselves" which is complete nonsense. If people could so easily see the benefits of staying together then…

While I do agree with you, there's a bit of me that wonders whether allowing some regression on a smaller scale (although Brexit is by no means small) might keep us from becoming a powder keg that explodes at a later time.

Already after Brexit I've heard quite a few reports of 1) young Brits elsewhere in Europe becoming much more engaged with politics because 'now it matters', and 2) Brexit voters who now regret their decision because it affects them negatively (or is likely to).

Again, I agree with you and I don't think it's ideal, but part of me feels letting people make decisions like this, even if I personally think they're (often) stupid decisions prompted by populism, might be better than jamming 'the educated choice' down their throats.

But I'm not expert on the matter. Are there any historical analogues that might provide some insight here?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#224

Post by mercer »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #144
notspanishflu wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

> If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole Let's boil it down to the basics: an election decides who is going to be leader of a group of people. For that leader to be legitimate every member has to voluntarily decide they want to be part of the group and thus the election. The problem here…

And yet I don't see any way this can work without the 'tyranny of the majority', as long as we consider things like private property a thing.

So ten people decide to bow at Steve's now-royal feet. His rule involves property. The two who didn't vote for him might be living within the boundaries of that property. Or it might not be economically feasible for them to survive without entering Steve's kingdom. And unfortunately all the other land is rules by Dave and Jared, who would require their submission just as much as Steve.

I just don't see a practical way, within the framework of (pretty much?) then entire world at this point, where it is possible to not agree to take part in an election, and to realistically disrespect its results.

Catalonia and the real world is more complicated, so perhaps there is a future where Catalonia succeeds at seceding. Personally I'm not as much against that as most people seem to be.

But I guess I'm just pointing out that there's no simple anything that this situation can be reduced to.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#225

Post by dgut »

msh wrote: post #219
dgut wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separate armies, laws, currency, un-democratic state, considerably shorter time period, a national id (Catalonia has never been a state before).

Catalonia have been a state. According to Wikipedia it was last a state in 1659, Norway was not a independent state between 1537 and 1905 so I don't think the time period are that dissimilar. Spain was also not Democratic until less than 50 years ago.

No, it was not. It was a default French protectorate for a brief period of time.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#226

Post by mercer »

So by all means explain to me how I'm being overly simplistic (because I feel that I am), but while our brains like to ponder the complexities of this situation, can't we at least conclude that it's a bad thing that physical, state-backed violence is used to prevent people from doing something that isn't in any way physically violent (and in fact a rather admired 'action') in itself?

I mean, hell, it's quite possible that even if an overwhelming majority of Catalonians vote for secession (which I hear is not even likely to be the case?), reality will get in the way. At the very least even the worst-case scenario, in my opinion, does not justify physical interference in a non-violent process.

But again, honestly please correct me if I'm missing something blindingly obvious.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#227

Post by mo_po »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #191
adriand wrote: post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

The problem is how you determine the entity that should have a right to such a vote. There are many wealthy regions in many countries that may want to keep all their money for themselves in spite of the fact that their wealth is based on its historical role within the country as a whole. For instance, London has a lot of reasons to declare itself independent from the UK. But it would seem rather odd if all it took to…

As a catalan, I have to say that I don't care if we pay more taxes. What I find annoying is that PP, party that uses hate against catalans to win votes and has corruption rooted and proved since it's foundation, keeps raising election after election. The economical matter by itself is just a selfish argument that I don't share. I care for fighting corruption and for not being treated as a second class citizen because I was taught two languages in my childhood. Lies are spread constantly about how non-catalans are mistreated and nobody seems to care that there is no proof supporting that.

Please, stop saying it is a money related problem.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#228

Post by kgwgk »

csdreamer7 wrote: post #192

The pro-Spain arguments here in this post are really poor. The only two good arguments that on their face are worth looking at are: Catalan's pop is evenly split on the issue and local officials are pushing it to gain power. Spain was baited-they took it, and now Catalan's secession movement has international sympathy. For abit of context of how something this is handled here in America. In 2015 the US Supreme Court…

A more similar situation would have been the Hawaiian government organising a binding vote to secede from the US in 48 hours (while maintaining the US citizenship!).

I guess the SCOTUS involvement would have been more intense in that case.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#229

Post by musage »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

> it is fairly easy to slip back

Indeed.

https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/status/914131859654639616

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#230

Post by johnchristopher »

dgut wrote: post #213
Tech-Noir wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you - how does it back up your claim that there wouldn't be much left of Europe if Europeans had more control over thei…

> Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you. History is not your strong side then, I guess. > Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea. Rubber bullets are nonlethal and not meant to cause serious injuries or death unless of course misused at very close range. Participating in an illegal uprising isn't going to be consequence-free.

Illegal uprising ? Come on, it's not like it's about half a dozen colonels ordering troops to seize the parliament. It's ten of thousands civilians putting papers in ballots.
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