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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#151

Post by yorwba »

throwawayknecht wrote: post #103
polack wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something else...

> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. I mean, sort of yes, but also Catalonia was annexed within living memory.

What annexation are you talking about? As far as I can tell, Catalonia lost it's independence with the Nueva Planta decrees in 1716 [0], which is far from "within living memory".

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Planta_decrees

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#152

Post by xenophonf »

notspanishflu wrote: post #119
throwawayknecht wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. I mean, sort of yes, but also Catalonia was annexed within living memory.

If you believe that lie, I can't help you.

I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in. Reputable sources of info on the history of Catalonia are plentiful, whether online or in the library. In this case, OP is probably referring to the Spanish Civil War, which indeed happened within living memory and prior to which Catalonia was autonomous under the Second Spanish Republic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic_...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#153

Post by throwaway76543 »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89
lurker456 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure?

Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#154

Post by blfr »

soneil wrote: post #148
blfr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Spanish government seems to be in a lose-lose situation. If they don't stop the referendum, positive results will be used to further the independence movement. If they do try to stop it, the videos we're watching will be used to further the independence movement.

There is a possible ‘win’ - if a clear & open referendum is held, and the results do not give independence a clear mandate. Both the lose-lose paths - and the government’s current actions - seem to presume independence would win that mandate in a fair vote. This was never presumed until the government started acting like it was.

This is a conditional and temporary win. It legitimizes the referendum path meaning Catalonia may try it again in a few years and other regions may attempt the same.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#155

Post by sbmassey »

notspanishflu wrote: post #108
sbmassey wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose the Spanish government didn't do a good enough job of convincing the Catalonian people that they are part of Spain.

The majority of catalans don't want independence. The political parties promoting independence represent less citizens than the political parties that want Catalonia to be part of Spain.

So really, the Spanish government should just have let the referendum go ahead peacefully, and thereby have had that fact publicly demonstrated.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#156

Post by Aaargh20318 »

codedokode wrote: post #145
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

If you allow any region to declare independence then there will be thousands or maybe even more states. Different provinces and regions are united into a country because this way they have more military power to defend themselves. When there is a lot of small states it will be easy to conquer them one by one - either by external enemy or by one of those small states. At least this is what happened in the Middle Age.

> If you allow any region to declare independence then there will be thousands or maybe even more states.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

> Different provinces and regions are united into a country because this way they have more military power to defend themselves.

Exactly. So there are many benefits for people to form larger groups, but please let them decide that for themselves. This kind of negates your first point, if there are obvious benefits then there won't be thousands of states, because people would recognise they are better off together.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#157

Post by krona »

codedokode wrote: post #145
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

If you allow any region to declare independence then there will be thousands or maybe even more states. Different provinces and regions are united into a country because this way they have more military power to defend themselves. When there is a lot of small states it will be easy to conquer them one by one - either by external enemy or by one of those small states. At least this is what happened in the Middle Age.

In 1945 there were 51 members of the United Nations. There are now 193. What's the problem?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#158

Post by dgut »

Tech-Noir wrote: post #142
dgut wrote: post #61

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…

> there wouldn't be much left of Europe Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Independence for smaller states - ie, taking back control and power from a greater/globalist state - would, if anything, make Europe (people and culture) more European again. > They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. So peo…

> Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state.

Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs.

> maiming and potential killing of civilians by police

How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential killing of civilians"? Stop exaggerating the story to fit your personal views.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#159

Post by onemore2 »

faragon wrote: post #92
olegkikin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct, but that wasn't my point. Just because something is legal / illegal, doesn't automatically make it right or good / wrong or bad. I think they are trying to determine how the population is split by the voting. If it's a large enough population that doesn't want to live under the Spanish rule, they shouldn't. And if there's a minority that does want to live under the Spanish rule, they still can, just m…

The problem is far worse: 1) The Court gave orders to the regional police. 2) The regional police IGNORED the orders for a week (there are videos proving that). 3) The Court, after the innactivity of the regional police, asked the "inter-state" police ("Policia Nacional" and "Guardia Civil", that are polices that operate in Spain at global level) to do the work the regional police ignored to do (they pretended doing…

Putting pacific, albeit illegal, people in jail worked wonders in the cases of Gandhi and Mandela. The spanish government should be in some kind of delusional state if they think they can solve this problem jailing people.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#160

Post by Aaargh20318 »

codedokode wrote: post #149
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Did they now ? Let's say Russia is having an election and the people in Crimea are allowed to vote. Let's assume the majority of Russians voted for Putin but hardly any of the people in Crimea did. Did Russia suddenly become the legitimate government of Crimea just because 'the people voted for it' ? I think the first step would be for the people to agree t…

> Catalonia didn't voluntarily join Spain, they got annexed. This is how most countries were formed in the Middle Ages. You either are big enough to defend yourself or become a part of big enough country.

A lot of bad shit happened in the Dark Ages, that's why they are called the Dark Ages. Doesn't mean we shouldn't correct them now we know better.
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