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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#81

Post by IncRnd »

mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

> I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote?

If a son or daughter of legal age wants to move out of their parents' house, does the rest of the family get to stop them from moving?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#82

Post by peeters »

mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

> The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote.

The same was true of the Scottish referendum. And the Quebec referendums.

I'm not really for or against anything here, but it doesn't make any sense to have everyone vote in a secession referendum. It should be a referendum among the people attempting to secede.

I could see there being a universal referendum on the wording of the referendum and the terms of secession though.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#83

Post by jeremy7600 »

mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

States vote for secession alone. Where they secede from has no say in the matter, hence secession. How do you think the crown would have voted when the US colonies declared independence?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#84

Post by logronoide »

monodeldiablo wrote: post #56
dawkins wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you…

And why do you think that such radicalism has taken hold in Catalonia? Has it ever been thus, or could it possibly be in reaction to something...? And do you think that the Spanish government's actions will encourage unity or fan the flames of separatism? I think Catalan independence is a stupid idea, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered not to see the historical, ongoing heavy-handedness of the Spanish government i…

That "radicalism" has nothing to do with centralism. It has to do with radical nationalism of peripherical regional parties. They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years. Spain is a very decentralized country, closer to a federal model.

Right regional parties in Catalonia cannot keep on stealing from the public budget since the Great Recession. Their business model is over. They have to pivot to a new business model called "independence".

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#85

Post by lllllll »

mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

You seem to agree with the way it went in the UK/Scotland. And yet as far as I can remember, only Scottish citizens voted in that referendum... Why would Catalonia's be different than any other self-determination referendum?

Do you honestly believe this is a logical demand? If so, what % of "pro-independence" of Spanish census would be enough for you, 51% of whole Spain?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#86

Post by nsnick »

gfiorav wrote: post #39
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

You’re not in a democracy, it’s a representative parliament system. Same almost worldwide. There’s a difference. Many of modern so called democracies though referendums are not the best way to solve these issues. Read up on how it worked for the Ancient Greeks or how the American constitution fathers talk about “direct democracy”. Then think how it worked out for Brexit. It’s nothign new: ancient Greeks also got fire…

So you are saying you want Spain to bring back the Fascists?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#87

Post by wott »

gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.

Madrid would not react as brutally as they do if their intelligence services foresee such a result; they would just protest and deny vote legitimacy as they usually did the previous times, and let the vote be.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#88

Post by lllllll »

bonzini wrote: post #44
dazc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence." So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?

Because of the precedent, presumably. If it is not allowed by the Spanish Constitution, what will be the next part of the Constitution that will be ignored?

It seems the constitution is easily editable after all:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforma_de_la_Constituci%C3%B3...

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#89

Post by dawkins »

severino wrote: post #74
dawkins wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you…

> in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice, the same way you can't decide which subjects your children will study. At least not in Spain. > mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals Maybe you should look at what's happening to those supportin…

That you can't even study in Spanish is only a little example about how reasonable is to talk about oppression.

The mayors who support the referendum are just being called to declare by the tribunals and being told that what they are supporting is illegal.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#90

Post by kgwgk »

nsnick wrote: post #50
gfiorav wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is: How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.

It’s not the central government rounding people up, the orders come from judges in Catalonia.
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