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Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

theguardian.com

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Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#51

Post by readittwice »

sgift wrote: post #18
lispm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without European (and incl. German) money Greece would be bancrupt and no longer in the Eurozone. Bancrupt banks in Europe would have helped no one, particularly not Greece. For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel.

> For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel. That is correct, but one could ask that people don't go around and say "Germany saved Greece!", cause no .. it didn't. It saved its banks.

Saving some affected banks would've been cheaper than saving Greece. Even if "saving german banks" might have been one of the reason, it wasn't THE reason as you claim.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#52

Post by LoSboccacc »

guitarbill wrote: post #32
kome wrote: post #5

Very good article. The industry-government nexus in Germany is indeed super powerful and underrated: other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism. In the last few years we saw it in action, with important repercussion on the global level: for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed it had to do much more with the safety of German banks, that with the welfare of Greece ( https://www.esmt.…

> other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism. That's insulting, and factually inaccurate - unless you have evidence to substantiate this hyperbole? > for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed The Greek crisis had other origins, and the financial checks/obligations upon joining the Euro are supposed to mitigate against the risk of not being able to devalue a national currency to e.g.…

> The Greek crisis had other origins, and the financial checks/obligations upon joining the Euro are supposed to mitigate against the risk of not being able to devalue a national currency to e.g. boost tourism or exports. Too bad the Greek financial records may have not been completely accurate.

Guess who pushed hard and voiched for greece joining the euro?

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#53

Post by ahartmetz »

lispm wrote: post #31
sgift wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel. That is correct, but one could ask that people don't go around and say "Germany saved Greece!", cause no .. it didn't. It saved its banks.

There is a lot of propaganda involved. Sure Greek politicians did not blame themselves for taking huge amount of credit money and wasting it. Without paying back the money (-> to the banks), Greece would have been bancrupt within days. Thus saving the banks saved Greece from being bancrupt. Without banks and without government money from the outside, nobody would have given Greece any credits...

The thing is, the Greek system mostly worked, corruption and waste and all, before it entered the Euro area. Cheap credit and no possibility of currency devaluation broke it.

The currency union was just very badly thought out. A currency union without a fiscal union is probably a bad idea. That was recognized somewhat by the stability criteria for new members that were then swiftly ignored for various reasons.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#54

Post by lispm »

ahartmetz wrote: post #53
lispm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of propaganda involved. Sure Greek politicians did not blame themselves for taking huge amount of credit money and wasting it. Without paying back the money (-> to the banks), Greece would have been bancrupt within days. Thus saving the banks saved Greece from being bancrupt. Without banks and without government money from the outside, nobody would have given Greece any credits...

The thing is, the Greek system mostly worked, corruption and waste and all, before it entered the Euro area. Cheap credit and no possibility of currency devaluation broke it. The currency union was just very badly thought out. A currency union without a fiscal union is probably a bad idea. That was recognized somewhat by the stability criteria for new members that were then swiftly ignored for various reasons.

> the Greek system mostly worked

That's highly debatable and in a changing political landscape there was no future for that. A tiny country next to the EU and a large Eurozone? Greece needed reforms and some (not all) of them were long delayed. That's also the point of the EU and the Eurozone. It provides the framework for the reforms. The largest win for Greece is a stable democracy, after a long phase of political instability and military governments.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#55

Post by lispm »

ahartmetz wrote: post #48
sjwright wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without being tied to the common currency, the Greek Drachma would have devalued relative to the Deutsche Mark, making Greek exports and tourism more lucrative. Had this been able to occur, the impact to the Greek economy would have been far less. Instead, the common currency has greatly benefited Germany: had the Germans retained the Deutsche Mark, their currency would be valued higher than the Euro is now, making t…

It's not all great for working Germans either. German companies are doing great while inflation-adjusted salaries are flat or decreasing depending on industry - for its high productivity level, Germany has become sort of a low wage country. The current low unemployment rate has a high price.

The larger part of that problem is the poverty/unemployment/lack of jobs/... in the eastern parts.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#56

Post by petre »

lispm wrote: post #11
kome wrote: post #5

Very good article. The industry-government nexus in Germany is indeed super powerful and underrated: other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism. In the last few years we saw it in action, with important repercussion on the global level: for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed it had to do much more with the safety of German banks, that with the welfare of Greece ( https://www.esmt.…

Without European (and incl. German) money Greece would be bancrupt and no longer in the Eurozone. Bancrupt banks in Europe would have helped no one, particularly not Greece. For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel.

Greece would have been perfectly fine without the Euro. It is the Euro, Goldman and Sachs, Greek politicians and Deutche Bank that have bankrupted it.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#57

Post by kleiba »

lispm wrote: post #26
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #2

As a person, she's extremely obstinate. For a leader, this trait can be advantageous - after all, who wants a leader who changes their minds all the time - but for the rest of Europe it's a curse. Somehow she is unable to admit she made some serious mistakes, and we're all suffering because of it.

That's actually the opposite of the perception of Angela Merkel in Germany. In Germany she is seen as populist, because she changes her mind quite often or waits until the public opinion is clear. Only in the refugee crisis, she was seen as following moral principles having not made any concessions to right wing politics (which earned her a lot of respect and a lot of hate). Make no mistake, generally her team is ver…

A politician who implements the public opinion? Shocking!

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#58

Post by petre »

lispm wrote: post #39
sjwright wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without being tied to the common currency, the Greek Drachma would have devalued relative to the Deutsche Mark, making Greek exports and tourism more lucrative. Had this been able to occur, the impact to the Greek economy would have been far less. Instead, the common currency has greatly benefited Germany: had the Germans retained the Deutsche Mark, their currency would be valued higher than the Euro is now, making t…

Greece imports a lot -> gets more expensive. Greece with its Drachma would have been a welcome victim for currency speculation. This was tried with the Euro, too, but it failed. People also think in economic terms, but the Euro is a political project. Countries like Greece wanted to be in the Eurozone. It was not Germany's wish. It was the wish of Greece and the population of Greece also wanted it - not just the poli…

> Greece with its Drachma would have been a welcome victim for currency speculation. This was tried with the Euro, too, but it failed.

All pegs are a potential victim of currency speculation. The solution is to end the peg and let the currency float, as it happened to the British Pound/Deutche Mark during the Soros stunt in the 90s or more recently with the Euro/Swiss Franc peg.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#59

Post by ahartmetz »

Grue3 wrote: post #49

IMO being anti-nuclear and pro-environment are mutually exclusive positions. Easy way to discern who really wants to reduce carbon emissions and who is just a populist.

According to environmentalists in Germany, nuclear and pro-environment are indeed mutually exclusive. But I prefer not to copy all of my opinions from the group I most agree with.

FWIW I think nuclear is good in principle, but neither states nor companies have proven responsible enough to handle it. So I'm kind of against nuclear but not in this dogmatic way.

The practical difference is that I think there should be further research to design inherently safe approaches and processes to reduce the risk until it's orders of magnitude safer - maybe something with Thorium, maybe fusion, maybe a new fission reactor design. Then I'd be in favor of using it.

The nuclear waste "killer argument" is mostly bullshit. Highly radioactive substances are spent quickly, long lived substances radiate weakly. 100000 years are quite predictable in geology.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#60

Post by FabHK »

guitarbill wrote: post #32
kome wrote: post #5

Very good article. The industry-government nexus in Germany is indeed super powerful and underrated: other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism. In the last few years we saw it in action, with important repercussion on the global level: for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed it had to do much more with the safety of German banks, that with the welfare of Greece ( https://www.esmt.…

> other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism. That's insulting, and factually inaccurate - unless you have evidence to substantiate this hyperbole? > for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed The Greek crisis had other origins, and the financial checks/obligations upon joining the Euro are supposed to mitigate against the risk of not being able to devalue a national currency to e.g.…

OT, but for an excellent and gripping inside account of the Greek crisis drama I highly recommend Adults in the Room by Yanis Varoufakis (the academic-turned-finance-minister, until he was booted out half a year later).

The crisis was managed irrationally and vengefully, and certainly with an eye on bailing out German and French banks, and making an example of Greece.

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