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Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

theguardian.com

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Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#31

Post by lispm »

sgift wrote: post #18
lispm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without European (and incl. German) money Greece would be bancrupt and no longer in the Eurozone. Bancrupt banks in Europe would have helped no one, particularly not Greece. For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel.

> For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel. That is correct, but one could ask that people don't go around and say "Germany saved Greece!", cause no .. it didn't. It saved its banks.

There is a lot of propaganda involved. Sure Greek politicians did not blame themselves for taking huge amount of credit money and wasting it.

Without paying back the money (-> to the banks), Greece would have been bancrupt within days. Thus saving the banks saved Greece from being bancrupt. Without banks and without government money from the outside, nobody would have given Greece any credits...

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#32

Post by guitarbill »

kome wrote: post #5

Very good article. The industry-government nexus in Germany is indeed super powerful and underrated: other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism. In the last few years we saw it in action, with important repercussion on the global level: for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed it had to do much more with the safety of German banks, that with the welfare of Greece ( https://www.esmt.…

> other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism.

That's insulting, and factually inaccurate - unless you have evidence to substantiate this hyperbole?

> for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed

The Greek crisis had other origins, and the financial checks/obligations upon joining the Euro are supposed to mitigate against the risk of not being able to devalue a national currency to e.g. boost tourism or exports. Too bad the Greek financial records may have not been completely accurate.

While Germany has benefited from the Euro, so have other countries. And it wasn't/isn't without downsides for Germany, either. I distinctly remember when the Euro was introduced, everything became far more expensive than the Deutschmark prices had been.

I think we can agree on that the economy is very much globally connected, and that a recession is going to have wide-spread effects. And that austerity doesn't work, and shows that best case, economists and bankers don't know what they're doing, or worst case know exactly what they're doing.

However, equating the actions/stance of one nations banks to that nation's people is a leap too far.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#33

Post by mixedbit »

I fail to understand why German automotive industry is lobbing pro diesels. All German car makers make both gasoline and diesel engines, if diesels were banned or taxed to be more expensive customers wouldn't resign from buying cars but would choose some other available option (gasoline, hybrid, electric).

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#34

Post by sjwright »

lispm wrote: post #11
kome wrote: post #5

Very good article. The industry-government nexus in Germany is indeed super powerful and underrated: other countries call it corruption, in Germany is called corporatism. In the last few years we saw it in action, with important repercussion on the global level: for example, the way the Greek crisis was managed it had to do much more with the safety of German banks, that with the welfare of Greece ( https://www.esmt.…

Without European (and incl. German) money Greece would be bancrupt and no longer in the Eurozone. Bancrupt banks in Europe would have helped no one, particularly not Greece. For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel.

Without being tied to the common currency, the Greek Drachma would have devalued relative to the Deutsche Mark, making Greek exports and tourism more lucrative. Had this been able to occur, the impact to the Greek economy would have been far less.

Instead, the common currency has greatly benefited Germany: had the Germans retained the Deutsche Mark, their currency would be valued higher than the Euro is now, making their exports more expensive and/or lowering the profits of export industries.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#35

Post by lispm »

mixedbit wrote: post #33

I fail to understand why German automotive industry is lobbing pro diesels. All German car makers make both gasoline and diesel engines, if diesels were banned or taxed to be more expensive customers wouldn't resign from buying cars but would choose some other available option (gasoline, hybrid, electric).

There have been zillions invested in the Diesel, which would have been wasted. The Diesel is also seen as the more efficient engine: less fuel consumption and less CO2 emissions.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#36

Post by perlgeek »

yorwba wrote: post #10

The article voices a bunch of valid criticism, but I really wish it could have done so without turning environmental damage into a contest and using unsubstantiated superlatives. Is it not enough to criticize someone without claiming that they are the worst ? The jab at Trump felt misplaced as well.

I agree. And if they do make it a contest, providing numbers for comparison would be really helpful. Like, her impact compared to that of Bill Clinton or George W. Bush.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#37

Post by daniel-cussen »

shangxiao wrote: post #25
yorwba wrote: post #10

The article voices a bunch of valid criticism, but I really wish it could have done so without turning environmental damage into a contest and using unsubstantiated superlatives. Is it not enough to criticize someone without claiming that they are the worst ? The jab at Trump felt misplaced as well.

I feel like jabs at conservative politics are the norm now with a lot of journalism. A few weeks back an article [1] I read, from reddit, started with: …the dastardly Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor seem to be a great gift to the Alt-Right’s xenophobic nationalists. Interesting article, but unnecessary (and daresay incorrect?) jab at the start. [1] http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-american-who-buried-a-kamik...

Indeed. It was exactly the other way around, as many nationalists (including the KKK) did not want to get into the war and held a lot of sway right up until Pearl Harbor.

After Pearl Harbor, there was no keeping USA out of the war.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#38

Post by [deleted] »

Tomte wrote: post #23
marze wrote: post #6

Germany's generous subsidy and build out of solar, while solar was still really expensive, was key in driving the cost down which now the whole world benefits from. Huge credit there. But bio fuels are an unmitigated disaster. Electric ground transportation is the future.

If scientists finally succeed in mimicking the oxygen evolving complex from photosynthesis, you get decentralized free hydrogen. Suddenly real hydrogen combustion (instead of fuel cells) makes sense and should be advantageous, even compared to electric transportation. But, of course, it's a bit like fusion power: should be achievable in principle, but the details are infuriatingly difficult.

[deleted]

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#39

Post by lispm »

sjwright wrote: post #34
lispm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without European (and incl. German) money Greece would be bancrupt and no longer in the Eurozone. Bancrupt banks in Europe would have helped no one, particularly not Greece. For the welfare of the people in Greece the greek government is responsible, not Angela Merkel.

Without being tied to the common currency, the Greek Drachma would have devalued relative to the Deutsche Mark, making Greek exports and tourism more lucrative. Had this been able to occur, the impact to the Greek economy would have been far less. Instead, the common currency has greatly benefited Germany: had the Germans retained the Deutsche Mark, their currency would be valued higher than the Euro is now, making t…

Greece imports a lot -> gets more expensive.

Greece with its Drachma would have been a welcome victim for currency speculation. This was tried with the Euro, too, but it failed.

People also think in economic terms, but the Euro is a political project. Countries like Greece wanted to be in the Eurozone. It was not Germany's wish. It was the wish of Greece and the population of Greece also wanted it - not just the politicians.

Germany actually did not want to have the Euro itself, it agreed to the Euro to get the Reunification. But it agreed on the Euro to be a stable currency, not one that politicians would devalue to gain short term effects.

Re: Angela Merkel’s record on environmental policy has been a disaster

#40

Post by guitarbill »

hannob wrote: post #17
guitarbill wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This largely coincides with the Green Party's rise in popularity. Sadly it seems they have no real plan, only ideology. IMO this is why they've prioritised shutting down nuclear power over coal power, because demonstrating against nuclear power is almost required to be a member, but sensible policies are not. I don't think you can blame Merkel, she doesn't really have a hard stance on most topics - if anything, the o…

> This largely coincides with the Green Party's rise in popularity. The green party could probably profit much more from those topics if one had the feeling they'd be more trustworthy in those issues. Particularly in the diesel emissions scandal the greens are a big failure - the reason being that the greens form the government in southwest Germany (Baden Württemberg), which has a strong car industry.

I'm from Baden Württemberg, and I'm not sure how strong the car industry is any more. For example, every year a bit more autobahn has a speed restriction applied to it.

I think you're spot on though. The diesel emissions scandal is made worse by the fact that diesel was promoted in the EU because the CO2 emissions tend to be lower than petrol. This is reflected by diesel vs petrol prices in France or Germany (diesel was/is? cheaper per 100km), compared to the UK where diesel wasn't as popular.

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