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U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

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Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#191

Post by trhway »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #14
flashman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, now China's going to put malware into every Xbox controller on the off-chance it gets inserted into a USN submarine /s

This is something to worry about. USB hosts and devices identify themselves - malicious firmware embedded in the Xbox controller could check if it's connected to a real Xbox, compared to a Windows PC, or a submarine, and act (or misbehave) accordingly. And what is the plan in 20-30 years' time when the submarines are still in action but the controllers stopped being made? I get the feeling we'll see Navy personnel bi…

> I get the feeling we'll see Navy personnel bidding on "vintage" Xbox controller auctions on eBay

Replace Ebay with flea market and this is how in the second half of 199x some spare parts for Soviet/Russian space station "Mir" (and for some other space projects, well into beginning of 200x) were procured. With USSR falling and economy tanking/changing/"privatized in all senses and at all scales" many typical sources for space parts just disappeared and/or stopped working.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#192

Post by heavenlyblue »

alexasmyths wrote: post #189
heavenlyblue wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally a salary of 2 upper-grade engineers for a year (for a piece). There's literally _no way_ it had been done in the most efficient manner.

Though there is a lot of bureaucracy, you'd be surprised at how much work it is. Consider how much a massive 'clean room' costs to operate. Consider how much gear it takes to simulate the operation of massive robot arm in a 0G environment, when we live in a 1G environment. Consider what happens when a 1 ton arm, attached to a 20 ton structure, applies toque to a 1/2 ton satellite... when the satellite is moving ... C…

And we've managed to end up with shuttle with all of that bureaucracy.

I understand the complexity of the issue at hand. I can.

Nevertheless simple handles going for 200K a piece is a vast budget. Any proper business would quickly open up an internal department to "do the handles" since it both allows them to grow for free (you get additional specialists and the handles) and allows to use the same engineers for something else. More importantly testing becomes less of an issue since now you may easily do integrated testing of several disjoined components at once.

So no - I understand where the expenses come from. But it doesn't mean that structure is in _any_ way motivated.

The idea of subcontracting and every little piece of hardware being done by a separate little entity doesn't seem to work both in terms of pricing and in terms of the amount of work it would be doing be it a merged entity.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#193

Post by 0xbear »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #169
0xbear wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain then why our f35 program costs $1.5 trillion and counting.

Because it's a massive program that required several technologies that were never used in production aircraft be made production ready with expensive state of the art technology and deliver a result that has acceptable performance for a wide range of users with a wide range of use cases. It was pretty obvious from day 1 that this would be expensive af. Being cutting edge is always expensive af.

There’s nobody more cutting edge than NASA, and its budget _since inception_ is still less than this. There’s expensive and then there’s wiping my ass with hundred dollar bills expensive.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#194

Post by jpindar »

newman8r wrote: post #46

I have been using an xbox one controller instead of a mouse for 4 or 5 months now. I use the qjoypad package to map the thing. It's really great and I believe it's why my chronic right-side back pain has completely vanished. So as someone who uses this type of input device, I think it's a great fit for military use.

I've experimented with using Padstar for the same purpose. It worked well enough, but I had no particular reason to keep using it.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#195

Post by matt4077 »

vacri wrote: post #94
kobeya wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've said why it is expensive. Not why it needs to be expensive.

Perhaps you should hawk your minimally-tested, 'just trust us', generic pre-designed handles made out of cheap steel to NASA, and tell them what a bundle they'd save. If it works then you'll be on a gravy train. Well, a limited-run gravy train, for 50 or so units.

I appreciate some good snark, but that's more or less exactly what SpaceX is doing, although their handles are slightly more complicated.

By using off-the-shelf hardware, and reusing the first stage, they're on a good trajectory to undercut previews launch system by almost an order of magnitude. And NASA trusts them enough to outsource even manned flight to them.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#196

Post by C0DEHERO »

mannykannot wrote: post #153
kbutler wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? > video game controls are so much fun for a reason I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse.

> Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? This is the worst-case scenario for what is a rather overblown concern in the first place. > I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse. Even when operating a submarine?

> Even when operating a submarine?

Exactly, use the correct controller for the correct scenario. Keyboard+mouse works for many games, but for games where you control vehicles (racing games, aircraft simulators, submarines), joystick controls just work better.

Also, let's not forget that Microsoft would probably help out with hardening the security of the controllers. It's not like the Navy would have to reverse engineer the controller to figure out how to make it more secure.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#198

Post by alexasmyths »

alexasmyths wrote: post #189
heavenlyblue wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally a salary of 2 upper-grade engineers for a year (for a piece). There's literally _no way_ it had been done in the most efficient manner.

Though there is a lot of bureaucracy, you'd be surprised at how much work it is. Consider how much a massive 'clean room' costs to operate. Consider how much gear it takes to simulate the operation of massive robot arm in a 0G environment, when we live in a 1G environment. Consider what happens when a 1 ton arm, attached to a 20 ton structure, applies toque to a 1/2 ton satellite... when the satellite is moving ... C…

"easily do integrated testing of several disjoined components at once."

It just doesn't work that way.

It's an area of hyper-specialization.

Everything made for space is a 'one off', there really are no economies of focus or scale. Maybe in launch.

There just aren't 'lines of business' in space really.

Once you walk in the situation and spend a few days there, and see what's going on, you get it.

I haven't even scratched the surface of it.

Every process is recorded, needs to be archived.

Every single piece of software hardware ever used needs to be 'kept around' in case something goes wrong. 20 year old computers, floppy disks, have to be managed and 'kept up' in case something from way back needs to be tested.

Purchasing requirements/limitations. Political control (governments pay for this, so they set rules, change them). Security clearances. Accounting standards. Process audits. Insurance audits. Hyper-specialization HR impossibilities (like 10 guys in the world qualified to do ABC activity).

You must wonder why it costs '100M dollars' to film a big movie, have a look at the detailed budgets. A lot comes out of the woodwork.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#199

Post by rhino369 »

cube00 wrote: post #100
vacri wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I don't really understand this criticism - why would a bespoke milspec controller be any more likely to be around than a widely documented consumer controller? Which do you think is easier to replace today, or get a manufacturer to remake: a model M from 1984, or a custom machine keyboard from 1984. Hell, wind the back another 10 years - I worked in a hospital with a really old bit of kit. It was a Siemens EEG mac…

Is Microsoft going to be willing to share their original specs so you can build an identical controller years down the track? Given we're talking military here reverse engineering to remake wouldn't be acceptable.

As long as the military doesn't buy them on Amazon.com, yea they probably would. Escrow of technical and IP documents is pretty common in industry procurement, I'd imagine that it's even more common in procurement for defense.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#200

Post by komali2 »

mikeash wrote: post #180
KGIII wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I grew up in a family of Navy and Marines. I'd do my service in the Marines. I also watch way too many documentaries. Submarines are firmly on my nope-list.

For anyone interested in this stuff who hasn't already done it, I'd highly recommend a tour of a museum submarine. I recently did the USS Growler in NYC and it was really neat. Highly obsolete, of course, but the general idea of being cramped and using every bit of space is timeless. It was hard to imagine living in there for months at a time. One person in my tour group almost started freaking out just in the ten mi…

On using every bit of space: I also recommend a visit to Johnson Space Center in Houston. If you are lucky you can catch a tour of the life-sized model of the ISS they have. It's interesting to see the different countries' engineering approach to "using every bit of space." The American modules are fairly well put together, generally non-surprising space saving solutions. The Russians appeared to just give up and hew everything out of solid blocks of some sort of light metal. Then you step into the Japanese module and it's just... perfection...
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