Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

pilotonline.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 216 posts

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#151

Post by zyx321 »

ams6110 wrote: post #24
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something to worry about. USB hosts and devices identify themselves - malicious firmware embedded in the Xbox controller could check if it's connected to a real Xbox, compared to a Windows PC, or a submarine, and act (or misbehave) accordingly. And what is the plan in 20-30 years' time when the submarines are still in action but the controllers stopped being made? I get the feeling we'll see Navy personnel bi…

Make the periscope report to the controller that it's an Xbox.

Then you would just have to write the malware in such a way that it works fine on legitimate hardware but exploits a glitch that exists only on the military hardware. Maybe based on MS drivers VS Linux drivers (or whatever OS the navy uses).

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#152

Post by mipmap04 »

kbutler wrote: post #147
LibertyBeta wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harde…

Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? > video game controls are so much fun for a reason I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse.

Even if you spend a ton of time and money hardening it, if the xbox-like game controller is more efficient and easier to train on, then you save there in training costs and improved operational effectiveness. This of course relies on an assumption that the current method of control is overly complicated and difficult.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#153

Post by mannykannot »

kbutler wrote: post #147
LibertyBeta wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harde…

Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings? > video game controls are so much fun for a reason I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse.

> Once you harden it sufficiently, do you have any cost savings?

This is the worst-case scenario for what is a rather overblown concern in the first place.

> I'm really more of a keyboard guy. Sometimes a mouse.

Even when operating a submarine?

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#154

Post by logfromblammo »

LibertyBeta wrote: post #134
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harde…

The consumer hardware only needs to last 20 years. After that, the Navy can surely make their own, as any patents run out.

The Navy will need to write their own firmware anyway.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#155

Post by jsjohnst »

LibertyBeta wrote: post #134
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harde…

> If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made.

First of all, I want to say I agree with you. That said, you didn't really refute GP's point.

The IBM XT was well documented, had many clones and alternatives, but still you can't find parts at most electronic stores 33 years later. Several decades is a very long time in consumer electronics.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#156

Post by _ea1k »

komali2 wrote: post #32
exikyut wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$30000/$30=1000 replacement '360 controllers. Now you just need space for all of them. I guarantee that for something as fundamental as the main periscope control, _everything_ is going to have replacement parts. That's why $30k is so expensive, it's not $30k, it's $60k or $90k or $120k. Now they have the kind of problem that's fun to have: for half or quarter of the cost of replacing that proprietary controller, the…

Surely there isn't that much room on a sub. I've heard horror stories of how cramped they are.

That is because the supply rooms are crammed full of XBox 360 controllers.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#157

Post by GuB-42 »

What about ratings? Military hardware typically use electronics with wider margins for temperature, humidity, power surge, etc... While consumer hardware is used a lot in R&D and testing, it normally doesn't make it to the final product.

Of course, I practice, I think that a peripheral designed to withstand the wrath of gamers worldwide could handle an actual war just fine. And if not, replacements don't cost much. But still, it is surprising that armed forces accept something not covered by rubber stamps and red tape.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#158

Post by groby_b »

mysterydip wrote: post #98
c0m0 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years. 2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

Let's assume we actually get 50 Virginia class submarines (whims of Congress, and all that). Let's assume we need on average 3 controllers per year. That's a total of 5,000 XBox controller.

At $20 a piece, the pentagon has now spent $10,000. This is not what in military spending passes for excess $ :) Yes, the numbers might be somewhat off, and there's storage cost, but really - we're talking Pentagon here. The place of the infamous $640 toilet seat :) (I know, the price got reduced to $100. Still, on the scale of Pentagon procurement, a lifetime buy of XBox controllers is pretty trivial)

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#159

Post by christophilus »

cstross wrote: post #86
jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

To your second point, these things are manifactured in China. What's to prevent them from adding tracking devices or backdoors to these if they realize they're going into US military ships?

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#160

Post by jerf »

jsjohnst wrote: post #155
LibertyBeta wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harde…

> If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. First of all, I want to say I agree with you. That said, you didn't really refute GP's point. The IBM XT was well documented, had many clones and alternatives, but still you can't find parts at most electronic stores 33 years l…

One thing I'd point out is that the only relevant objections are things that are true about the XBox controller that aren't true about all the alternatives. One-off bespoke custom hardware at dozens of thousands of dollars a pop are not necessarily going to be better supported at these time scales, because even if you sign an iron-clad contract with an entity to do whatever maintenance you could dream up, they still have the "going out of business entirely" option. You also can't neglect the hours of training involved and all the other associated costs with bespoke solutions.

We're trying to solve the problem of how to point periscopes here, not solve the generalized problem that when it comes down to it, nobody really knows what 2027 is going to be like.

(By contrast, "this is a new vector for malware if the supply chain is not secured" is a valid concern because one presumes and/or hopes that bespoke military hardware is better controlled there. This is a solvable problem, but solving it eats into the cost advantage.)

Post reply on HN