That's a good sign. I'm sure the alternative is getting a quote from some contracter who would want to reinvent the wheel for millions of dollars, and probably a worse result. Microsoft already did the legwork of development. More consumer products ( as long as there are sufficient fallbacks / quality control ), in military operations, is a-ok in my book.
U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
11–20 of 216 posts
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#12> “I can go to any video game store and procure an Xbox controller anywhere in the world, so it makes a very easy replacement.” Or the Rec room.
Great, now China's going to put malware into every Xbox controller on the off-chance it gets inserted into a USN submarine /s
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#13This is one of those simple ideas that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad to hear there are teams working to reduce costs and improve UX for the military. Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller, but they must have been optimizing for a certain consumer price point as well. It makes me wonder what sort of controller you would have if they spent all that focus on usability, but with the same $3…
> Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller
Precisely. Remember the "Duke" controller?
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#14> “I can go to any video game store and procure an Xbox controller anywhere in the world, so it makes a very easy replacement.” Or the Rec room.
Great, now China's going to put malware into every Xbox controller on the off-chance it gets inserted into a USN submarine /s
This is something to worry about. USB hosts and devices identify themselves - malicious firmware embedded in the Xbox controller could check if it's connected to a real Xbox, compared to a Windows PC, or a submarine, and act (or misbehave) accordingly.
And what is the plan in 20-30 years' time when the submarines are still in action but the controllers stopped being made? I get the feeling we'll see Navy personnel bidding on "vintage" Xbox controller auctions on eBay the same way prices for original NES and Atari controllers are through the roof right now.
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#15I also am one to agree that I think this is a great step forward with maybe trimming off our huge military expenditures, particularly ones that come out as "leaks" because they are so embarrassed of them. I'm sure the U.S. navy will be taking a look at the hardware and maybe even flashing their own firmware on them, lest we open ourselves up for a catastrophic backdoor.
In the overall cost of the periscope, I'd be surprised if the original $30K controller was even 1% of the total. It's still $30,000 saved, but in the scheme of things this sort of economizing is not going to have any impact. What's more important is they found a more familiar, intuitive, hence better controller device. That it was also much cheaper was just a little bonus. If the savings in training hours are to be b…
It is not about the 30k$, I guess (around 10 subs, so circa 300k$ savings is not a bug thin for the army), but the spirit is the key, as the mindset will spread, and can potentially lead to huge savings.
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Great, now China's going to put malware into every Xbox controller on the off-chance it gets inserted into a USN submarine /s
This is something to worry about. USB hosts and devices identify themselves - malicious firmware embedded in the Xbox controller could check if it's connected to a real Xbox, compared to a Windows PC, or a submarine, and act (or misbehave) accordingly. And what is the plan in 20-30 years' time when the submarines are still in action but the controllers stopped being made? I get the feeling we'll see Navy personnel bi…
simply install "an USB firewall" into the periscope controller (not the xbox, but the usb host).
but my thought exacty: put a prepared controller to "game room" (sure there is such a thing on a nuclear sub). sabotage controllers. wait until one in "game room" gets plugged into periscope. Profit.
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#17Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#18This is one of those simple ideas that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad to hear there are teams working to reduce costs and improve UX for the military. Microsoft obviously did a lot of user testing with their controller, but they must have been optimizing for a certain consumer price point as well. It makes me wonder what sort of controller you would have if they spent all that focus on usability, but with the same $3…
Once you add the cost of adapting the periscope HW/SW and organizing + performing a one-off small run of XBox controllers on a US-only supply chain with military markup at each level, I suspect those "XBox controllers" cost closer to $30k than $30.
Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves.
About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wafer capacity of U.S-headquartered semiconductor manufacturing companies is in the U.S. It is perfectly reasonable to expect Microsoft to be able to manufacture their own IC design in the country with the single greatest semiconductor manufacturing industry in the world.
Edit: here's a (low res) image of the wired controller. It too seems to have only one complex IC, and that too seems to have Microsoft markings on it[1].
[0]: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4O1NH31bxPOMsUxu.h... [1]: https://cdn.instructables.com/FP6/6FYR/Z4BEV2Z5NA5/FP66FYRZ4...
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#19> “I can go to any video game store and procure an Xbox controller anywhere in the world, so it makes a very easy replacement.” Or the Rec room.
Great, now China's going to put malware into every Xbox controller on the off-chance it gets inserted into a USN submarine /s
Surely they wouldn't just be using whatever firmware the controller ships with?
Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines
#20Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.
+10.
This should be done in many more places.
Though with 'cost plus' contracts... providers are incented to create crazy new things for every problem.
If there weren't moral questions around this - it would be amazing to see a NATO forces 'hackathon' where people create top gear/tech for soldiers with off-the-shelf components and software.
I have a funny feeling that 'if they put their hearts to it' - there'd be no competition in terms of what could be created.
Imagine the SpaceX of 'jet fighters' - 2x the capability, 5% the cost.
Anyhow, obvious moral issues there ... just a thought.