Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

pilotonline.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 216 posts

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#91

Post by vacri »

cstross wrote: post #86
jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

1) I don't really understand this criticism - why would a bespoke milspec controller be any more likely to be around than a widely documented consumer controller?

Which do you think is easier to replace today, or get a manufacturer to remake: a model M from 1984, or a custom machine keyboard from 1984.

Hell, wind the back another 10 years - I worked in a hospital with a really old bit of kit. It was a Siemens EEG machine, and the keyboard was capacitive metal tabs. No travel at all - they simply registered when pressed by a finger but not other things (like a modern smartphone screen). I'd much rather dig up a common keyboard than one of those curios.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#92

Post by nalllar »

celdon25 wrote: post #65
alexasmyths wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+10. This should be done in many more places. Though with 'cost plus' contracts... providers are incented to create crazy new things for every problem. If there weren't moral questions around this - it would be amazing to see a NATO forces 'hackathon' where people create top gear/tech for soldiers with off-the-shelf components and software. I have a funny feeling that 'if they put their hearts to it' - there'd be no…

Well, you have the issue of EMP hardening. Not sure if that is a problem in submarines. But elsewhere, you have a serious defensive flaw if an EMP attack can disable military hardware.

A submarine's hull acts as a faraday cage. It's inherently quite well shielded against EMPs.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#94

Post by vacri »

kobeya wrote: post #73
alexasmyths wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requirements analysis, systems analysis and research (when you do things in space absolutely everything needs to be looked at), materials design and test (materials behave differently in space). Fixtures? How are they affixed to satelites? You can't just 'glue' them. The type of 'screws' are pretty important. This might require a lot of back and forth. Each step of the process involves internal review and review by t…

You've said why it is expensive. Not why it needs to be expensive.

Perhaps you should hawk your minimally-tested, 'just trust us', generic pre-designed handles made out of cheap steel to NASA, and tell them what a bundle they'd save. If it works then you'll be on a gravy train.

Well, a limited-run gravy train, for 50 or so units.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#95

Post by GunlogAlm »

cstross wrote: post #86
jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

I personally doubt that scarcity will be too big an issue with Xbox 360 controllers for the foreseeable future — development of new 360 hardware only ended in April last year. I can think of no piece of consumer electronics cheaper to source and repair than the 360 controller.

I'm sure, though, that both 1. and 2. are concerns the US Navy will have given ample consideration before making this move.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#96

Post by c0m0 »

cstross wrote: post #86
jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years.

2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#97

Post by newman8r »

rijoja wrote: post #55
newman8r wrote: post #46

I have been using an xbox one controller instead of a mouse for 4 or 5 months now. I use the qjoypad package to map the thing. It's really great and I believe it's why my chronic right-side back pain has completely vanished. So as someone who uses this type of input device, I think it's a great fit for military use.

I would be interested in learning more about your experiences using this? Have you been controlling a PC and what are your experiences with entering text and so forth? Hope you can find the time to answer all my stupid questions!

I mainly use it on my desktop, running debian stretch

The interesting thing is there's a learning period of a few weeks where I kept the sensitivity low on the analog sticks. I have the sensitivity lower on the left stick (for packages like inkscape or blender). I gradually ramped up the sensitivity. I often use it one-handed (right hand) and control with just the right analog stick. I have the analog pad clicks set to the right mouse button. The 'a' button is my left click, x button is 'enter', 'b' is another right click. The dpad is up, down, left right keyboard buttons. I use the left and right bumpers to switch between by workspaces (lb switches workspace up, rb switches down). the triggers enable middle mouse scroll up or down.

I still use a keyboard so entering text isn't much different, and I'm a vim user so the mouse isn't a big part of my workflow when coding or entering text.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#98

Post by mysterydip »

c0m0 wrote: post #96
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years. 2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement.

It's a tough problem.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#99

Post by newman8r »

tomcam wrote: post #48
newman8r wrote: post #46

I have been using an xbox one controller instead of a mouse for 4 or 5 months now. I use the qjoypad package to map the thing. It's really great and I believe it's why my chronic right-side back pain has completely vanished. So as someone who uses this type of input device, I think it's a great fit for military use.

Wow, can you elaborate on how you employ it and what you think it did specifically to help?

I just posted a slightly more detailed response in this thread related to the layout I use.

In terms of how I think it helped:

for ergonomics/back pain relief: I tend to sit up with a lot better posture now rather than 'reaching out to the right' where the traditional mouse used to be.

Over time, I'd developed some minor right side back pain and I stretched a lot and attempted better posture. It only helped so much. After I'd switched to the xbox controller, I started to feel better after a few weeks. Months later, the pain was completely gone and it hasn't come back since. I didn't make any other significant changes and I suspect my change in user input devices could be to thank.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#100

Post by cube00 »

vacri wrote: post #91
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

1) I don't really understand this criticism - why would a bespoke milspec controller be any more likely to be around than a widely documented consumer controller? Which do you think is easier to replace today, or get a manufacturer to remake: a model M from 1984, or a custom machine keyboard from 1984. Hell, wind the back another 10 years - I worked in a hospital with a really old bit of kit. It was a Siemens EEG mac…

Is Microsoft going to be willing to share their original specs so you can build an identical controller years down the track? Given we're talking military here reverse engineering to remake wouldn't be acceptable.
Post reply on HN