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U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

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Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#121

Post by zentiggr »

cube00 wrote: post #100
vacri wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I don't really understand this criticism - why would a bespoke milspec controller be any more likely to be around than a widely documented consumer controller? Which do you think is easier to replace today, or get a manufacturer to remake: a model M from 1984, or a custom machine keyboard from 1984. Hell, wind the back another 10 years - I worked in a hospital with a really old bit of kit. It was a Siemens EEG mac…

Is Microsoft going to be willing to share their original specs so you can build an identical controller years down the track? Given we're talking military here reverse engineering to remake wouldn't be acceptable.

There have been third-party Xbox controllers almost since the console came out. No doubt ONE of them will gobble up a DoD contract to continue production if it's offered. (Former Submarine FT)

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#122

Post by chuckdries »

cstross wrote: post #86
jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

The xinput gamepad is a pervasive standard, with plenty of third party hardware implementations and wide software support across operating systems. Heck, even Chrome and Firefox have JS apis to access xbox controller input.

Eventually it will be surpassed, but it's far more available and supported than whatever they were doing before, and its simple enough to be easy to continue to manufacture.

Also, do we really think the military couldn't find someone to contract with to continue making them if they needed to? Knock offs are $20 on Amazon, they're very simple devices.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#123

Post by stult »

cwingrav wrote: post #119
mysterydip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

mysterydip, you're doing a lot of posting and not listening to some of these very good answers. First. No, lifetime buys are not always a tough problem. While they can be tough, consumer grade electronics have to be the best product to predict lifetime buys on due to clear end of life and good data on mean time to failure. Second. Let's do some math. Let's assume a 30 year operation. There are 48 of this sub planned.…

It's probably also worth comparing to the cost of a bespoke solution. If it takes two engineers six months to design and test, you'll have spent more on their salaries alone than on your projected lifetime buy (which itself doesn't even account for any bulk discount).

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#124

Post by chuckdries »

rmc wrote: post #117
GunlogAlm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally doubt that scarcity will be too big an issue with Xbox 360 controllers for the foreseeable future — development of new 360 hardware only ended in April last year. I can think of no piece of consumer electronics cheaper to source and repair than the 360 controller. I'm sure, though, that both 1. and 2. are concerns the US Navy will have given ample consideration before making this move.

The SNES came out 27 years ago. Can you still get controllers for it? (Imagine if current submarines were using SNES controllers... )

Did the SNES controller become a de facto standard? Because the xbox 360 controller is one. There are plenty of xinput compatible gamepads from different manufacturers, the largest right now is Logitech. Xinput became pervasive because of PC gaming, it had really good support within windows, and support has been implemented now in Linux and directly in Chrome and Firefox. It's also really popular in the robotics world for exactly the reasons the navy outlined, a group I worked with used 3rd party xbox controllers almost exclusively. The tooling support is there as well, labview has built in xbox 360 controller support, and idk about other competing software but it probably does as well.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#125

Post by chuckdries »

cube00 wrote: post #100
vacri wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I don't really understand this criticism - why would a bespoke milspec controller be any more likely to be around than a widely documented consumer controller? Which do you think is easier to replace today, or get a manufacturer to remake: a model M from 1984, or a custom machine keyboard from 1984. Hell, wind the back another 10 years - I worked in a hospital with a really old bit of kit. It was a Siemens EEG mac…

Is Microsoft going to be willing to share their original specs so you can build an identical controller years down the track? Given we're talking military here reverse engineering to remake wouldn't be acceptable.

Yes

Xinput is a pervasive standard at this point, to where there is a large market of third party controllers and software support in various linux distros as well as a JS api to access it in Chrome and Firefox.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#126

Post by chuckdries »

rasz wrote: post #39
microcolonel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wa…

Microsoft doesnt manufacture those microcontrollers, they are off the shelf Microchip/Infineon parts.

Also there are a LOT of third party xbox controllers out there - I'm sure they don't mind if it's an official controller or not.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#127

Post by mysterydip »

cwingrav wrote: post #119
mysterydip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

mysterydip, you're doing a lot of posting and not listening to some of these very good answers. First. No, lifetime buys are not always a tough problem. While they can be tough, consumer grade electronics have to be the best product to predict lifetime buys on due to clear end of life and good data on mean time to failure. Second. Let's do some math. Let's assume a 30 year operation. There are 48 of this sub planned.…

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it's always a problem, or even in this specific case. Just that it can be, something for people to think about.

The problem comes when you start going through 3 a year, but then say 5 years down the road you start going through 15 a year. There could be a premature wear issue, some bug, an update from a related system, whatever. But you can't always plan for those, and it can come back to bite you. And whomever has the inventory at that time can have quite a markup.

For what it's worth, I think this controller idea is excellent.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#128

Post by JustSomeNobody »

chuckdries wrote: post #122
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

The xinput gamepad is a pervasive standard, with plenty of third party hardware implementations and wide software support across operating systems. Heck, even Chrome and Firefox have JS apis to access xbox controller input. Eventually it will be surpassed, but it's far more available and supported than whatever they were doing before, and its simple enough to be easy to continue to manufacture. Also, do we really thi…

> Knock offs are $20 on Amazon, they're very simple devices.

And that goes right into cstross' second point...

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#130

Post by graphitezepp »

dundercoder wrote: post #129

I love it when manufacturers choose to use common and inexpensive connectors/components, rather than choosing to make their own proprietary one. Using the iec 320 c13/14, usb micro, and other "standard" connectors is laudable.

Big fan of standardization as a principle over here. Even if the technology in question isn't the best, if its adequate I become an advocate as soon as its near being a standard. More use of common and inexpensive things and more standards just makes everything more modular and easier to fix in general.
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