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U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

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Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#81

Post by user5994461 »

kobeya wrote: post #72
jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

Former defense contractor here. I trust Microsoft to have put more time and money into making that controller maximally usable and useful than whatever subcontractor would have made the thing otherwise.

And it's battle tested by millions of player using it frenetically every day!

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#82

Post by ToFab123 »

kobeya wrote: post #73
alexasmyths wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requirements analysis, systems analysis and research (when you do things in space absolutely everything needs to be looked at), materials design and test (materials behave differently in space). Fixtures? How are they affixed to satelites? You can't just 'glue' them. The type of 'screws' are pretty important. This might require a lot of back and forth. Each step of the process involves internal review and review by t…

You've said why it is expensive. Not why it needs to be expensive.

Maybe to avoid issues like this. https://www.wired.com/2010/11/1110mars-climate-observer-repo...

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#83

Post by outoftacos »

otimepad222 wrote: post #56
ghufran_syed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hacking for Defense" is a step in this direction E.g http://hacking4defense.stanford.edu

"Defense" :) always have to laugh about that part

We have a "Department of Defense" as well as one for "Homeland Security". Cognitive dissonance is a funny thing.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#84

Post by mxfh »

gambiting wrote: post #78
nikcub wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres an entire market for high-end gaming controllers, from both Microsoft[0] and other manufacturers[1][2]. I had a chance to try out the Elite - they feel great, very solid build. The requirements for gamers might be a bit diff to what a submariner would require - but I could imagine the Navy would prefer the sturdiness of these high end controllers and that gamers prefer wired and low-latency. [0] https://www.xb…

The weak point of the elite controller(and I do have one) is the micro-usb port. I imagine it's completely unacceptable on a submarine that you suddenly lose control of the periscope because the cable is a bit dodgy and doesn't sit in the port properly. Wired X360 controllers have a major advantage here. Also if you drop the Elite controller the dpad and the analog sticks will fly in all directions because they are h…

What stops anyone from soldering (the USB) and/or hot-glueing those parts on? The tradeoff between customizability and ruggedness is quite easy to fix.

In my experience the buttons most likely to break are the LB and RB shoulder ones, since if the controller falls it might take out the switch on direct impact with it's full weight.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#86

Post by cstross »

jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

I'd have two big reservations about this.

1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce.

(If you think this is an exaggeration, consider the availability of spare parts today for a computer system commissioned 33 years ago, in 1984 — an original IBM PC XT, perhaps, or an original Macintosh, both of which were manufactured in — for the time — high volume. Things like 5.25" floppy disks, or a replacement M-series IBM keyboard with the original DIN plug, were once ubiquitous, but today they're rarities.)

2. A second concern is that these days everything comes with an embedded processor and an enterprising hostile entity might try to sneak malware on board a fast attack submarine via the periscope controller handset. (I've no idea what form such malware might take, or what it might accomplish, but that's not the point: it's that using cheap commercial handsets widens the threat surface of the submarine's sensor suite arbitrarily.)

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#87

Post by gruturo »

alexasmyths wrote: post #62
wallace_f wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IPhone has a lot of R&D required for it to do what it does. How much R&D is reasonable for some "really simple handles?"

Requirements analysis, systems analysis and research (when you do things in space absolutely everything needs to be looked at), materials design and test (materials behave differently in space). Fixtures? How are they affixed to satelites? You can't just 'glue' them. The type of 'screws' are pretty important. This might require a lot of back and forth. Each step of the process involves internal review and review by t…

Don't you have (shouldn't you have) a "certified parts library" so you don't need to go through the process of studying which material is needed for a handle, use standard and pre-certified screws to affix them, which you already know won't come off due to vibrations during launch, and won't accidentally fuse once in space (https://www.quora.com/If-two-metals-touch-in-space-they-fuse...). Basically do it right, so you only do it once, like software libraries (in an ideal world). Unless you really really have a damn good reason to not pick an existing handle from the library.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#89

Post by jack1243star »

celdon25 wrote: post #65
alexasmyths wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+10. This should be done in many more places. Though with 'cost plus' contracts... providers are incented to create crazy new things for every problem. If there weren't moral questions around this - it would be amazing to see a NATO forces 'hackathon' where people create top gear/tech for soldiers with off-the-shelf components and software. I have a funny feeling that 'if they put their hearts to it' - there'd be no…

Well, you have the issue of EMP hardening. Not sure if that is a problem in submarines. But elsewhere, you have a serious defensive flaw if an EMP attack can disable military hardware.

Is there an EMP capable torpedo though? They seem useless in water. Other than the nuclear ones of course...

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#90

Post by gambiting »

mxfh wrote: post #84
gambiting wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weak point of the elite controller(and I do have one) is the micro-usb port. I imagine it's completely unacceptable on a submarine that you suddenly lose control of the periscope because the cable is a bit dodgy and doesn't sit in the port properly. Wired X360 controllers have a major advantage here. Also if you drop the Elite controller the dpad and the analog sticks will fly in all directions because they are h…

What stops anyone from soldering (the USB) and/or hot-glueing those parts on? The tradeoff between customizability and ruggedness is quite easy to fix. In my experience the buttons most likely to break are the LB and RB shoulder ones, since if the controller falls it might take out the switch on direct impact with it's full weight.

Well, nothing, but my guess is that it needs to work straight out of the box for military use, you can't be hot-gluing buttons and cables on equipment that's used on a submarine.
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