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China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

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Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#141
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(forgive me but this short comment gave me quite a bit to think about :P) It's definitely necessary to have accurate information to keep things running, but there are certain aspects of the notion of 'accurate information' when it serves an ideological purpose that are pretty unexpected. For instance, Stalin believed his doctors were part of a conspiracy to kill him, so he would have his doctors and those of all top…

One of the reason the sowjet state collapsed is because they lapsed when it came to surveilance, as in they started to built massive public housing projects, allowing for family to move into theire own flats and thus escape surveilance. Another lesson seems to be, that historys smallest revolutionary cell can be bribed into neutrality by economic success.

> Another lesson seems to be, that historys smallest revolutionary cell can be bribed into neutrality by economic success.

The counter for this is people getting used to the good life and wanting more. If a government is able to have sustained economic success even in the face of this irresistible force, maybe it deserves to continue ruling.

We have yet to see if the Chinese government will be able to maintain itself as the average Chinese move higher on Maslow's pyramid.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#142
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this can't be stressed or repeated enough! The Soviet Communist Party was/is rather like Scientology. At the noob level, in the Pioneers (a lot like US Boy Scouts) it was all about ideals/ideology and honor. At some point, you realized that members got nice perks. More money. Access to stores that carried better food and stuff. And eventually, as you got into higher-level leadership, you started to get that it w…

did you ever stop to wonder why every communist state ends up the same? is it possible they misunderstand human motivations and psychology and will always devolve to authoritarianism?

Because communism rests on abolishing property. Practically, you can't abolish ownership without a de-facto authoritarian police state. That follows naturally from the idea of "seizing the means of production" - you can't do that if the capitalist next door pays more money than your cooperatively owned factory where nobody really owns anything, because people will just choose to sell their labour to the highest bidder. So the only option is to make owning things illegal.

In the USSR this is exactly how things worked - you absolutely could not own .. stuff. I mean, you could buy shoes and those were your own shoes, but you couldn't buy, say, a factory. You couldn't buy land to build a factory. Heck, you couldn't buy land, period. You could not choose to live off the land, because all the land belongs to everyone^Wthe state. You worked where you were told (based on education), when you were told, the salary for your position was set in stone, and the fruits of your labour were divided fairly - half to the top members of the party, half again to the middle managers, half again to good friends, and the rest to all the other members of the party (everyone is a member of the party, not being a member of the party is illegal).

This form of government can work and if you remove the corruption element and actually manage it intelligently, it can work incredibly well, and I'll bet you a million dollars there are plenty of people who will love a form of government that removes all choice from their lives.

That said, the form of government, that is probably most close to what Marx envisioned, is maybe direct democracy, with corporations that don't have CEOs, but where decisions are taken again via direct voting (N.B. I might be talking out of my ass here). Those kinds of corporations do exist, but the practice hasn't caught on widely.

When you boil it down, we don't want people to be serfs. The ideal is that everyone captures the full value of their labour, without trampling over the rights of others, and that everyone has the opportunity to enjoy a high standard of living. Getting there requires a really careful balancing act, where you give the people in government just the right amount of power, so that factory owners &c. can't oppress their workers, while at the same time it's not so much as to swing back to an authoritarian system with monarchs and serfs. Currently we call this "democracy" and the economic system "capitalism", but I would like people to not think in magical words and focus on the actual essence of problems and solutions.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Law isn't what paper says, but what the ruling party decides. Isn't this up for debate? On one hand, in SK a Samsung chief and heir and also former President are facing long prison sentences (some of the protests leading up to this were argued to be the largest peaceful protests in history, ever).* On the other, in the US a convicted paedophile, Jeffrey Epstein, never spent a day in jail. He is a billionaire and ver…

>On the other, in the US a convicted paedophile, Jeffrey Epstein, never spent a day in jail. That is incorrect. He spent 13 months in prison and is now a registered sex offender.

No, he did not spend 13 months in prison. For 13 months he was required to sleep in a special cell, weeknights only. He was free to leave during the day and weekends.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#144
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Milenia of failure. None of their dinasty's lasted even 1,000 years and many where very short. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zdHkY3XYHKA

Millenia of continuity- as in there always where citys, there always where villages, there always where fields. No civil war destroyed all records. No civil war spanning more then three generations. No locked in against foreigners syndrom.

You could say that about Europe, the Middle East, South Asia.

If China does undergo civil and political upheaval I don't think it has the social institutions or mechanisms to suddenly switch to enlightened liberal democracy, history matters, but that doesn't mean the Communist Party is guaranteed political control in perpetuity.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#145
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's really interesting about this is how unstable it makes the country. Clamp down and eventually you end up in a USSR situation where the government suddenly disintegrates with little real warning because there is no feedback loop to maintain stability. Things seem ok because everyone ends up walking around pretending things are good even the people enforcing the rules. Untill you get a little spark and suddenly…

Chinese government is panicking over its crashing economy, and it shows in its actions. As of this year, it - banned soft cheese - banned all korean music and entertainment - (got rid of) Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Laureate, and prevented his wife from leaving China - banned ICO - banned a bitcoin exchange - prevented its companies from investing overseas (Wanda, etc) - (rumored) prevented the richest person from leaving…

You missed a few:

- VPN Apps on the iOS App Store

And my favourite from last year:

- Erotic banana eating videos[0].

[0] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-36226141

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. These extreme laws are only possible because china has "rule by law" rather than "rule of law." They are not applied very aggressively, only to take down enemies when needed.

and by "enemy" is anyone and anything that disagrees with that the state commands. What an odd mixture of communism, capitalism, and dictatorship.

China isn't homogenous, enemy is left up to individuals with power to define such. This leads to interesting battles where different factions are using similar laws to fight each other.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#148
post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

> The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! And that's why it's important to fight those who would introduce Chinese-like censorship to the west in the name of combating "hate speech" or whatever else tickles the moral panic of the day. Efforts like Google's Conversation AI seriously worry me: they have the potential to shape thought the same way that the Chinese approach does. I…

> those who would introduce Chinese-like censorship to the west in the name of combating "hate speech"

Call me a pessimist but I think we already lost this fight. There's no going back to more freedom of speech now. Especially for us here in Europe.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#149
post #56
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't underestimate the nationalism of young Chinese. And I very much doubt the CP is going to go after administrators who on-the-whole moderate with a pro-Beijing slant because they took 5 minutes too many to delete a comment. Making assumptions that all young people hate the CP and would betray their country to the west at first opportunity sounds like one of those classic mistakes the West makes when it projects i…

Most outsiders probably do not realize the impact of 24/7 propaganda in every media channel there is. That's what OP is overlooking, and that's ultimately what this action is ultimately about...

Just like we underestimate our propaganda. When you are inside the soap bubble, it's very hard to realize how much our brain have been washed.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#150
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this can't be stressed or repeated enough! The Soviet Communist Party was/is rather like Scientology. At the noob level, in the Pioneers (a lot like US Boy Scouts) it was all about ideals/ideology and honor. At some point, you realized that members got nice perks. More money. Access to stores that carried better food and stuff. And eventually, as you got into higher-level leadership, you started to get that it w…

did you ever stop to wonder why every communist state ends up the same? is it possible they misunderstand human motivations and psychology and will always devolve to authoritarianism?

Most systems ended up that way, communist or not. It's more of a human thing really.

We have yet to try communist.

Actually we even have yet to try democracy.

All we manage to do now is a decent amount of freedom, comfort and peace for a lot of people in the same place. It is an achievement, but nowhere close to the terms we like to label our systems with.

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