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China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

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Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#81

Post by unabridged »

alphaalpha101 wrote: post #74
EGreg wrote: post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

The USA doesn't have freedom of speech in any meaningful sense. You only have to look at the way peaceful protestors are treated to see that. The Occupy Wall Street protesters were treated horrifically. As more and more formerly public places are privatised and the veneration of private property as an ideal above all others continues, the USA is simply running out of places where you're even allowed to protest. And t…

Blocking a road is not free speech. Preventing people from going into a building is not free speech. This is just private citizens attempting to restrict the right of movement of other private citizens.

The right to publish any media, no matter how obscene or political, is free speech. And the US has the closest to free speech of any major country.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#82

Post by wallace_f »

revelation wrote: post #12
brd wrote: post #10

The regulations also demand that all chat room users in mainland China verify their real identity... Effective 8 October, the following types of content will be prohibited in chat groups on China-based messaging platforms: 1. Sensitive political content 2. Rumors 3... Holy shit. What is this going to do to the Chinese tech scene? The liability being created here is crazy to consider. Lets all hope these practices are…

It just means they can jail or shutdown who they want. Of course they could and have done that before, so really there is no change. Law isn't what paper says, but what the ruling party decides.

>Law isn't what paper says, but what the ruling party decides.

Isn't this up for debate?

On one hand, in SK a Samsung chief and heir and also former President are facing long prison sentences (some of the protests leading up to this were argued to be the largest peaceful protests in history, ever).*

On the other, in the US a convicted paedophile, Jeffrey Epstein, never spent a day in jail. He is a billionaire and very close friend of Bill Clinton's.

I am interested in historically how well the rule of law in the US has or has not applied equally to all citizens?

*I personally found it really strange this has gotten so little attention in Western media.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#84

Post by unabridged »

oculusthrift wrote: post #36
mirimir wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this can't be stressed or repeated enough! The Soviet Communist Party was/is rather like Scientology. At the noob level, in the Pioneers (a lot like US Boy Scouts) it was all about ideals/ideology and honor. At some point, you realized that members got nice perks. More money. Access to stores that carried better food and stuff. And eventually, as you got into higher-level leadership, you started to get that it w…

did you ever stop to wonder why every communist state ends up the same? is it possible they misunderstand human motivations and psychology and will always devolve to authoritarianism?

Because so far every communist state has been created by violent revolutionaries side stepping the democratic process. The type of people who join a party that wants to shove the beliefs of 10% down the throats of the 90% are inherently authoritarian. Its no wonder they never become real democracies once they have total power.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#85

Post by MarkPNeyer »

roceasta wrote: post #28
omarforgotpwd wrote: post #9

These laws are starting to appear now because for the first time AI and machine learning are making censorship at this scale economically feasible.

Yes, feasible, but what makes large-scale censorship so apparently desirable, or at least so widely desired? The first obvious thought is that there are repressive governments around the world who wish to keep power. And this is true. But it can't be the whole explanation since plenty of relatively free western democracies and businesses are enthusiastically embracing censorship, laws about 'hate speech', and so on.…

I have noticed that any pattern i see in the large world, I also find reflected in my own mind.

When i've found myself unhappy about some aspect of the broader world beyond my control, i've often been able to find the same pattern reflected in my own mindset, locally.

Matrioshka dolls:

http://markneyer.com/wp/?p=1078

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#86

Post by bjshepard »

imron wrote: post #66
golemotron wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I knew more about Chinese history. They have about 4K years of institutional memory to draw on and they likely are more aware of their history than we are of ours in the West.

> They have about 4K years of institutional memory So does Greece. That doesn't appear to be doing Greece much good in the modern era though. Also, large swaths of China's institutional memory were wiped out during the Cultural Revolution.

This is not true.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#87

Post by [deleted] »

unabridged wrote: post #81
alphaalpha101 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA doesn't have freedom of speech in any meaningful sense. You only have to look at the way peaceful protestors are treated to see that. The Occupy Wall Street protesters were treated horrifically. As more and more formerly public places are privatised and the veneration of private property as an ideal above all others continues, the USA is simply running out of places where you're even allowed to protest. And t…

Blocking a road is not free speech. Preventing people from going into a building is not free speech. This is just private citizens attempting to restrict the right of movement of other private citizens. The right to publish any media, no matter how obscene or political, is free speech. And the US has the closest to free speech of any major country.

[deleted]

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#88

Post by [deleted] »

quotemstr wrote: post #34
EGreg wrote: post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

> The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! And that's why it's important to fight those who would introduce Chinese-like censorship to the west in the name of combating "hate speech" or whatever else tickles the moral panic of the day. Efforts like Google's Conversation AI seriously worry me: they have the potential to shape thought the same way that the Chinese approach does. I…

[deleted]

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#89

Post by vacri »

EGreg wrote: post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

There really isn't that much difference between US free speech and other western democracies' free speech, despite the first amendment. Yes, it's a little better if it makes it to court, but compared to something like what's going on in China, it really isn't that much different.

However, there's still plenty of limitations on free speech in the US. Look at obscenity laws, for example - nudity is much more acceptable in Europe than in the US. Or if you're a 'freedom of expression' fan rather than just 'freedom of speech', why is sex work still illegal? It's not in plenty of other western democracies.

As a non-American, it just gets tiring hearing the Americans constantly crap on about how much freer they are than everyone else, when there's really not that much difference.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#90

Post by seanmcdirmid »

scottLobster wrote: post #23
brd wrote: post #10

The regulations also demand that all chat room users in mainland China verify their real identity... Effective 8 October, the following types of content will be prohibited in chat groups on China-based messaging platforms: 1. Sensitive political content 2. Rumors 3... Holy shit. What is this going to do to the Chinese tech scene? The liability being created here is crazy to consider. Lets all hope these practices are…

I'm no expert on China, but this fits the pattern of them making extreme laws (ie death penalty for corruption) and then selectively enforcing them. Laws are tools for the party to use when it feels it might benefit, not universal rules.

Yes, exactly. These extreme laws are only possible because china has "rule by law" rather than "rule of law." They are not applied very aggressively, only to take down enemies when needed.
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