Live data from Hacker News

China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

globalvoices.org

121–130 of 170 posts

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#121
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I knew more about Chinese history. They have about 4K years of institutional memory to draw on and they likely are more aware of their history than we are of ours in the West.

> They have about 4K years of institutional memory So does Greece. That doesn't appear to be doing Greece much good in the modern era though. Also, large swaths of China's institutional memory were wiped out during the Cultural Revolution.

Don't mistake institutional and cultural memory, which are not the same thing! A memory in the intellectual elite sense, and a political cultural memory, and a widespread low-cultural set of norms and understandings are also different things. All apart from the institutions of state, or religion, or bureaucracy, or commerce, and so on, which may have traditions and functional memory going back decades or millennia, depending.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#122
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's really interesting about this is how unstable it makes the country. Clamp down and eventually you end up in a USSR situation where the government suddenly disintegrates with little real warning because there is no feedback loop to maintain stability. Things seem ok because everyone ends up walking around pretending things are good even the people enforcing the rules. Untill you get a little spark and suddenly…

Chinese government is panicking over its crashing economy, and it shows in its actions. As of this year, it - banned soft cheese - banned all korean music and entertainment - (got rid of) Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Laureate, and prevented his wife from leaving China - banned ICO - banned a bitcoin exchange - prevented its companies from investing overseas (Wanda, etc) - (rumored) prevented the richest person from leaving…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8qDKeb0g00

Cheese is a hoax

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#123
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this argument works -- many democratic states (including the US) were also created by violent revolutionaries.

The american colonies were not democratic, they needed a violent revolution to create a democracy. There was no peaceful mechanism for them to take power. Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over. They could have peacefully taken control in elections if they were able to convince the voters. But instead they disbanded the legislatures and stopped having elections.

"Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over."

Russia was not[0]. One of the key reasons that laid foundations for revolution there was wide discontent of nobles and their arrogance towards common people.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese government is panicking over its crashing economy, and it shows in its actions. As of this year, it - banned soft cheese - banned all korean music and entertainment - (got rid of) Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Laureate, and prevented his wife from leaving China - banned ICO - banned a bitcoin exchange - prevented its companies from investing overseas (Wanda, etc) - (rumored) prevented the richest person from leaving…

Thanks to Allah the almighty Jihad is still an allowed surname in the EU. I guess it is a sign of the health of the economy of the EU.

They are deep in denial here on cultures whos main job it was to guarantee continous existance and not technological advances. Nice try.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#125
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh... I see the opposite. China knows better than the west what powers can be exercised on the net. They've been testing it for a long while and all the old assumptions "the net treats censorship as damage and routes around iT" etc. have been found wanting in China. As the power of the nation state returns to ascendancy, now with IT firmly under its yoke, I suspect that China will do much better and succeed. Instead…

Their government's current history is measured in decades. Future historians may yet measure it in decades. Do not be so quick to praise tyranny. It will last until the economy plateaus. Only then will we see if it is resilient.

In china central governance can be measured in milenia

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#126
post #10

The regulations also demand that all chat room users in mainland China verify their real identity... Effective 8 October, the following types of content will be prohibited in chat groups on China-based messaging platforms: 1. Sensitive political content 2. Rumors 3... Holy shit. What is this going to do to the Chinese tech scene? The liability being created here is crazy to consider. Lets all hope these practices are…

Freedom of Speech, and Right to Privacy all the way from "here" (pick your own "here") to a dark, cold, chinese prison cell (and not back, nothing escapes from that).

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on China, but this fits the pattern of them making extreme laws (ie death penalty for corruption) and then selectively enforcing them. Laws are tools for the party to use when it feels it might benefit, not universal rules.

Yes, exactly. These extreme laws are only possible because china has "rule by law" rather than "rule of law." They are not applied very aggressively, only to take down enemies when needed.

and by "enemy" is anyone and anything that disagrees with that the state commands. What an odd mixture of communism, capitalism, and dictatorship.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#128
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their government's current history is measured in decades. Future historians may yet measure it in decades. Do not be so quick to praise tyranny. It will last until the economy plateaus. Only then will we see if it is resilient.

In china central governance can be measured in milenia

Milenia of failure. None of their dinasty's lasted even 1,000 years and many where very short.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zdHkY3XYHKA

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#130
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing about it is, the USSR could have stayed in power if they had been willing to get bloody enough. If Stalin had been in power (or even Khrushchev) the USSR would not have collapsed. There may have been another holodomor. There may have been another terror. But the government would have survived. This is a lesson the CCP learned watching events unfold to the north, and they put it to work in 1989. The question is…

Dictators can't wave a wand and cause such things they need people and institutions to enforce their rule. More importantly they need accurate information information about what is and is not working. So, sure in 1960 in theory they could have changed things and kept the system running, but that's not nessisarily true of say 1985. And I my expectation is they did not really grasp how close to failure they where in 19…

(forgive me but this short comment gave me quite a bit to think about :P)

It's definitely necessary to have accurate information to keep things running, but there are certain aspects of the notion of 'accurate information' when it serves an ideological purpose that are pretty unexpected.

For instance, Stalin believed his doctors were part of a conspiracy to kill him, so he would have his doctors and those of all top officials arrested and tortured, to the point of forced confession. The crime was not simply planning to murder, but planning to kill sacred revolutionaries [0].

This example is typical of the Stalinist concept of "objective guilt": it does not matter there wasn't a shred of evidence to the conspiracy. The ideals were used falsely to prove lies as true - not because the ideals were meaningless or because they were there to justifying any whim. But because swifter and harsher punishment would go to the one articulating why it was obvious no one really actually believed the stated rules. That instead they all obeyed unspoken, subjective rules - externally praising Soviet ideals only to avoid causing themselves horrible punishment. That the system they called objective was actually extremely repressive because of its sheer intersubjectivity..

Though upon reflection, it provokes two questions: "Why could the same Stalin who either truly believed his subjective will was the actual manifestation of historical necessity, or merely dictated as if he did, hold office - during some of the 20th's century's more turbulent periods - for as long as 30 years? And why is it that the reimagined "visionary-yet-non-pathological" Soviet Party that followed Stalin - despite its repudiation of his cult of personality - was even less capable of 'making the right mistakes' towards securing its existence?"

Although one may be forced to say a lie, one will hold no illusions as hubristic as 'having made the correct mistakes' in brutal dictatorships - things are shitty. But when you become self-congratulatory, you hold more illusions. If I lack awareness of my tendency to underestimate my (recursive) uncertainty of my uncertainty of my self-evaluations, I would frequently wonder: "Gee! As if by chance - and without any understanding or memory of what they had in common - all these remote events - which I have disastrously underprepared for - just seem to keep happening to me! And with remarkable consistency"!

I'm not sure if or how China's approach will succeed or fail. But China doesn't have the same illusions as the USSR did about revisionism (and its antithesis). And, the Chinese government does have an external system it is both invested in and holds itself accountable to; one that is also a far less uncertain measure of success than any sort of internal affairs department - the entire world economy.

[0] http://www.lacan.com/zizstalin.htm

Post reply on HN