Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo • Hacker News Board

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#431

Post by closeparen » Sat, Sep 16, 2017, 8:18 PM UTC

21 wrote: post #275

dkhenry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment shows the real divide on unionization and its not about someone's political ideology, its fundamentally about how they view the profession. If like you said programmers should unionize before the army of $12/hour programmers arrives then what you are claiming is that software development could be done by someone who was trained and willing to accept $12 per hour. Essentially you are making the claim they…

Plane pilots are unionized, at least in UK or US. Your average major airline pilot makes around $130/hour. Do you consider them a common laborer, like a delivery driver, or a profession that doesn't require a deep understanding of the subject matter?

And as a result, piloting is a deeply unattractive career path because all new pilots must start in, and many will never make it past, the regional airlines with much lower pay and worse working conditions.

As in other fields, the pilots' union creates a two-tiered system where the haves (major airline pilots) enjoy great wages and conditions off the backs of the have-nots (regional airline pilots) who are miserable.

While unions are meant to extract value from capitalists and management, they often seem to end up extracting it from prospective and early-career workers who haven't yet made it to union membership.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#432

Post by closeparen » Sat, Sep 16, 2017, 8:32 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #277

stale2002 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is no reason why a union has to do anything in particular at all if you don't want it to." Yes there it. If a union takes over the workforce of your company, now you have to follow the union rules. If unions were just opt in, them yes you'd be right. But unions are NOT opt in for many states. One you are a union shop, you are screwed if you disagree with the union.

A union is also a democratically-run organization, so if you disagree with it, you have some recourse. A workplace is not democratically run, so if you disagree with it, you are also screwed, only this time you have no recourse.

You can leave a workplace you don't like for one of its competitors. If your profession has unionized and you don't like the union rules, you need to find another profession.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#433

Post by closeparen » Sat, Sep 16, 2017, 8:38 PM UTC

matchagaucho wrote: post #325

nnfy wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that abusive? If you want more secure work, don't offer your services as a contractor. Are you trying to suggest that there is something inherently abusive about contracting? What if I don't want a full time gig?

Outsourcing companies are treating Workers like Employees and misclassifying them as "Contractors". The Workers are told where to work, what time shifts to work, how to do their job, provided tools and equipment, and their pay is limited to minimum wage (or just marginally higher). That's just straight up abusive and illegal. They are treated like Employees and therefore deserve the benefits of Employees; including h…

Outsourcing companies and independent contractors are different problems. A tech company's cafeteria workers, janitors, etc. are employees of the outsourcing company that the tech company contracts with.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#434

Post by azza2110 » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 7:30 AM UTC

bb611 wrote: post #401

azza2110 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical 737 pilot earns 200-250k AUD and can work no more than 72 hours per month, including training, admin, etc. If a pilot needs so much sleep that they can only safely work 18 hours per week, I'd hate to think how compromised a passenger's safety is when being shuttled around by a Taxi/Uber driver working 40-80 hours per week.

> A typical 737 pilot earns 200-250k AUD and can work no more than 72 hours per month, including training, admin, etc. Do you have a source for any of those facts? Are you picking on 737 pilots for a reason, or do you really mean to imply this is the average for an Australian pilot? It all seems unlikely to be true, given that their competitors in the US are limited to 290 working hours and 100 flight hours per month…

Earlier this year I worked in the finance department for a major airline with significant B737 Australian operations.

As much as I would have liked these numbers to be false, they are sadly reality.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#435

Post by pavement » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 1:01 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #373

pavement wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and then the facilities manager threw up their hands, sighed, said " yeah, but what can you do... " flipped through a couple of emails on the old smart phone, then went and sat down and watched some crap on youtube for a few more hours, until oh... 4:35 PM, close enough, and clocked out for the day, with the wall still unpainted. C'est la vie.

My understanding is that per regulations only union labor is permitted to perform various tasks -- you can't just call any old contractor to install light fixtures. This was a requirement having to do with the location, I am not sure about the specifics (if it was a city thing or if the building owner had entered into such an agreement) but I'd like to have a better understanding. On the face of it, it does seem absu…

Right, I understand that aspect, but it's still worth highlighting cognitive dissonance where it exists.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#436

Post by kevmo » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #185

kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

>Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. what about the part where a single person can now add enough utility to the world and capture the entirety of sales and ownership of it without needing to own anything? 1. Isn't that a gain? 2. Who has taken it? Or doesn't it count as "labor" anymore if you work for yourself? Isn't owning your own work in full, the ultimate triumph of the proletariat? Piketty has nothin…

> Isn't the fact that in my estimation at least 80% of those Americans could theoretically learn to code within 6 months (for the remaining 20% it may be too difficult) and with minimal (or no) financial backing capture some part of some output on the Internet, a source of victory for labor?

I have strong opinions about this. I worked at Hack Reactor the first year it was open and started the subreddit reddit.com/r/LearnJavaScript, so I have a lot of experience with helping people go from 0 to employed software engineer.

Your estimations and assumptions are pretty flawed here, IMHO. Here's why:

1) 80% of Americans can't learn to code, unless you start training them at a relatively young age. Older people are not good at learning (they _can_ be taught to learn better, but that is separate problem).

2) Even if 80% could, 6 months is not enough time without full-time investment therein.

3) How many Americans can spend 6 months coding full-time for no pay? The majority of Americans don't even have $1,000 in the bank. This is out of their reach.

4) Even if you had 6 months full-time, you'd need to be on a pretty directed schedule, probably set by some sort of mentor. This costs money.

None of this is to say that we couldn't create conditions, via government policies, to foster conditions more suited for enabling the sort of labor mobility you describe. I actually think that is what these unionized workers are doing via higher wages and more structured time off. They have taken more for themselves and thus expanded their range of opportunities.

> If any of those "low-income Americans" build a web startup without funding (through perseverance and learning) then are they now 'evil', and taking from someone else? Who are they taking from in that case?

Not many people can build a company. Like, it is fun to act like everyone in America is a potential entrepreneur, but, in reality, the vast majority of people don't want to start a startup. Period. Let's not deny these people a full stake in society and the economy just because they don't want to go for the jugular.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#437

Post by logicallee » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #436

logicallee wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. what about the part where a single person can now add enough utility to the world and capture the entirety of sales and ownership of it without needing to own anything? 1. Isn't that a gain? 2. Who has taken it? Or doesn't it count as "labor" anymore if you work for yourself? Isn't owning your own work in full, the ultimate triumph of the proletariat? Piketty has nothin…

> Isn't the fact that in my estimation at least 80% of those Americans could theoretically learn to code within 6 months (for the remaining 20% it may be too difficult) and with minimal (or no) financial backing capture some part of some output on the Internet, a source of victory for labor? I have strong opinions about this. I worked at Hack Reactor the first year it was open and started the subreddit reddit.com/r/L…

Thanks for the reply! It sounds like you have a lot of experience with teaching people to code well enough to become employees, as coders. And that it's really hard and many will not succeed. Is this a correct reading on my part?

But this is a much higher standard than being able to put a web site up. It's the difference between learning accounting well enough to do accounting for someone - and learning Excel well enough to add your own business's costs up.

The former has much higher requirements.

So what I was really asking for is your perspective about someone starting an online business by themselves. Without learning any skill well enough to work as an employee for someone else, doing the same thing.

Basically I think that you summarize the difference here:

>Not many people can build a company. Like, it is fun to act like everyone in America is a potential entrepreneur,

I consider that point of view kind of patronizing. I think that yes, everyone (100% of people) can build a company. And, everyone in America is a potential entrepreneur. That's my perspective.

So, what is interesting is that you attack the premise, but have nothing to say about what happens to people who successfully "go for the jugular". For example, I asked if they are "bad" people if they make a successful online business; if they are then "taking" from someone. You don't answer, but essentially say it is a silly question.

Maybe so, but that reply does not offer a moral perspective on entrepreneurship.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#438

Post by kevmo » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #437

kevmo wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't the fact that in my estimation at least 80% of those Americans could theoretically learn to code within 6 months (for the remaining 20% it may be too difficult) and with minimal (or no) financial backing capture some part of some output on the Internet, a source of victory for labor? I have strong opinions about this. I worked at Hack Reactor the first year it was open and started the subreddit reddit.com/r/L…

Thanks for the reply! It sounds like you have a lot of experience with teaching people to code well enough to become employees, as coders. And that it's really hard and many will not succeed. Is this a correct reading on my part? But this is a much higher standard than being able to put a web site up. It's the difference between learning accounting well enough to do accounting for someone - and learning Excel well en…

> It sounds like you have a lot of experience with teaching people to code well enough to become employees, as coders. And that it's really hard and many will not succeed. Is this a correct reading on my part?

I have a decent amount of experience. I actually think something like 90% of Americans could figure out how to code if they really wanted to. If we taught it in schools starting at age ~5, we could probably get to that number. It's not just that it's hard, it is that it costs money to learn to code. The cost is directly proportional to age.

> I consider that point of view kind of patronizing.

I realized it sounded patronizing when I wrote it, but I didn't want to get distracted explaining why I didn't feel patronizing when I wrote it, so I will explain here:

I agree that virtually 100% of people build a company. But you have to want to. My point was: The overwhelming majority of people don't actually want to. So I think any discussion of policies needs to take that fact into consideration. I'm not going to try to make policy based on the world I wish I lived in rather than the world I actually live in. I'm not going to punish people for not wanting to be entrepreneurs. The world needs its worker bees. Honor the working bee.

> have nothing to say about what happens to people who successfully "go for the jugular". For example, I asked if they are "bad" people if they make a successful online business; if they are then "taking" from someone. You don't answer, but essentially say it is a silly question.

I also honor entrepreneurship (I am ~5 startups in myself). I do not believe wealth is a zero-sum game.

Of course you are not a bad person if you build a successful business. Morality is about how you conduct yourself in the pursuit of success and what you do with the power you acquire.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#439

Post by logicallee » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #438

logicallee wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the reply! It sounds like you have a lot of experience with teaching people to code well enough to become employees, as coders. And that it's really hard and many will not succeed. Is this a correct reading on my part? But this is a much higher standard than being able to put a web site up. It's the difference between learning accounting well enough to do accounting for someone - and learning Excel well en…

> It sounds like you have a lot of experience with teaching people to code well enough to become employees, as coders. And that it's really hard and many will not succeed. Is this a correct reading on my part? I have a decent amount of experience. I actually think something like 90% of Americans could figure out how to code if they really wanted to. If we taught it in schools starting at age ~5, we could probably get…

Thanks for this follow-up. It actually doesn't sound like we disagree about anything - so thanks for taking the time to write.

Also thanks for the work you put into greater equality and fairness of outcomes. Entrepreneurship is probably a separate, different axis. (Even though it's the one I asked about.)

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#440

Post by JPKab » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 3:23 PM UTC

s73ver_ wrote: post #419

JPKab wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as someone who grew up in a poor, rural community in a single parent household with 5 siblings, and was a construction worker being paid an hourly wage until around 25 years of age: If the labor you are selling to somebody isn't priced high enough to pay your bills, you need to ask yourself: 1) Is someone else willing to pay me more for this labor? 2) If yes, go work for them. If no, then the market has sp…

Your above statement shows that you do not have any empathy or compassion for those people, as you do not want to give them the opportunity to earn a living wage. And I find it very dishonest of you to refer to collective bargaining as a handout, or say that if they are able to negotiate something, that it is more than they are worth. If they are able to get that deal, does that not mean they are worth that much?

I always want to give people opportunity to earn a living wage. The best way to earn a living wage is to learn a skill that has a market value at or above the living wage.

Collective bargaining has a "tragedy of the commons" problem:

Each worker's wage is negotiated as part of a bulk package, therefore the worst performers get a higher wage than they otherwise would, and the best performers get a lower wage than they otherwise would.

Other side effects of collective bargaining: The union has to have tight control over new workers, otherwise their bargaining position is undermined. All new workers are required to be part of the union, who now controls hiring. In every unionized entity I've ever seen, this leads to nepotistic hiring practices. This is why NYC's fire department remained dominated by Irish Americans for decades after the demographics of NYC had completely changed.

We live in an age where education has been made available enough to a large enough % of the population that the majority of the public has been able to acquire skills that allow them to earn above a living wage. The minute that % drops low enough, you will see unions getting their power back, along with a boost in public support.