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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#411

Post by ericd »

wfo wrote: post #341
ericd wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With small companies, it's much easier to hop to another small company than it is if you work at the only car plant in town. And I'm sure there are restaurant owners out there who aren't complete assholes.

Yes, you can hop from tyranny to tyranny until you find a dictator who will have mercy on you and not abuse you as much, losing your health insurance and livelihood with every hop, hoping you don't become homeless or destitute or get sick every time you are abused. And maybe, if you're lucky, there is a company in your area that does what you know how to do and is decent, and you haven't had your reputation as a "com…

Sorry small businesses have apparently been so cruel to you, I've had great luck with them.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#412

Post by stale2002 »

Clubber wrote: post #367
stale2002 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's called racism. I don't care if other countries discriminate against us. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I will not ever support an organization that is outright discriminatory like that, whether it is based on skin color or citizenship. Also, unions DO indeed prevent people from being hired. That's why right to work laws exist. Right to work is the idea that if a company hires you, it is illegal for a union t…

>And that's called racism. I don't care if other countries discriminate against us. Lol. No it isn't, it's called nationalism. Racism is about the race of a person regardless of citizenship, nationalism is about citizenship regardless of race. You probably should look up words before you throw them around. >I will not ever support an organization that is outright discriminatory like that, whether it is based on skin…

Nationalism is indirect racism.

IE, if you make a law banning hiring anyone with an African citizenship, that is still racist, even though technically it still effects people from South Africa.

If you make a law that "coincidently" only effects countries that are majority not white, guess what, that's racist.

Any offshoring law would mostly effect non white countries, and wouldn't do much to effect European countries.

If your proposal 90% effects people who are of a different skin color, thats still racist, even if the net is a little wider, and still 10% effects white people.

I don't care what word you use for it. Discrimination is discrimination.

"So where in that sentence do you explain that a union can force a company not to hire you?"

The literal next sentence of your post.

If you don't join the union, you are fired. There is literally a word for this. It is called being a union shop. And it is what right to work laws protect against.

I don't care what justification is used to force people to join them. I do not want them to negotiate for me.

And I will fight all attempts that try to force me to join them.

Fortunately for me, most other people in tech oppose them.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#413

Post by wfo »

ericd wrote: post #411
wfo wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can hop from tyranny to tyranny until you find a dictator who will have mercy on you and not abuse you as much, losing your health insurance and livelihood with every hop, hoping you don't become homeless or destitute or get sick every time you are abused. And maybe, if you're lucky, there is a company in your area that does what you know how to do and is decent, and you haven't had your reputation as a "com…

Sorry small businesses have apparently been so cruel to you, I've had great luck with them.

I've been lucky as well and all of my small business experience personally has been great (tech small businesses are pretty good on average, I think) but my point is that luck, by definition, doesn't happen to everybody and we shouldn't have to rely on it. "I got lucky therefore there is no problem" is not a reasonable position to take.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#414

Post by Clubber »

stale2002 wrote: post #412
Clubber wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And that's called racism. I don't care if other countries discriminate against us. Lol. No it isn't, it's called nationalism. Racism is about the race of a person regardless of citizenship, nationalism is about citizenship regardless of race. You probably should look up words before you throw them around. >I will not ever support an organization that is outright discriminatory like that, whether it is based on skin…

Nationalism is indirect racism. IE, if you make a law banning hiring anyone with an African citizenship, that is still racist, even though technically it still effects people from South Africa. If you make a law that "coincidently" only effects countries that are majority not white, guess what, that's racist. Any offshoring law would mostly effect non white countries, and wouldn't do much to effect European countries…

>Any offshoring law would mostly effect non white countries, and wouldn't do much to effect European countries.

Is your argument that since the majority of the world population is not white, anything except wide open free trade with no borders are racist? Give me a break. There is plenty of offshoring to eastern bloc European countries.

Research some of this stuff. It sounds like you read a hugely biased article as the sole source of your information on this topic.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#415

Post by wfo »

mseebach wrote: post #129
tptacek wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have effectively no college, and went to work right after high school. Whatever labor organization tech workers come up with doesn't have to be the AFL-CIO and it doesn't have to be the AMA. It can just take the best attributes from all those organizations. Or it can start more modestly! Maybe tech workers will just come up with two or three things --- say, late exercise on options and better IP clauses --- and jus…

So that's a nice optimistic vision, and if I had any faith we could keep it to that, I'd be for it. My vision includes scope creep and lots of greedy ambitious good-at-politics less-good-at-actually-doing-work types grabbing the show once it's successful. Most organisations meaningfully described as unions has a non-trivial element of excluding people from the trade in one way or another. I will never be a part of an…

Guess what: you (almost certainly) already are. You think your business (on orders from the management, not based on a vote of the workers) doesn't arbitrarily exclude people? You don't have HR officers who filter out great programmers because they don't have credentials? Your company doesn't post job listings that require 5 years of experience and a college degree to write basic CRUD apps? You just have no control over these decisions at all, so it is easier to divorce yourself from them. If you had some ownership over the decision making process, like in a union, you'd have to own it -- this is good, even if it means you don't get your way. It is a transition from having zero say (nonunion) to making an argument, being heard out, and losing. And who knows, convince enough people, argue well enough, and you'll win the vote next time. But you have to fight to get a vote in the first place before that happens.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#416

Post by Daishiman »

tomohawk wrote: post #247
Clubber wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. A past job, I automated away jobs at $0.10 on the dollar and made a healthy salary, but it obviously was 1/10th of what I was worth. I left that company and all those jobs are still automated away and the more the company grows, the more they save. Also a tech union could push for perks like developer offices, remote work, better work equip…

Eastman Kodak was a technology innovator. Where are they now? Unions were/are a huge drag on them. In order to 'protect' workers, unions define job functions. This prevents an engineer from being moved over to bathroom cleaner. However, it also locks people into job descriptions that may have made sense at one time, but no longer do. It also makes the business unable to respond flexibly to new conditions. A friend of…

IBM is not unionized and has fought unionization since forever. They didn't need unions to have ridiculous rules pegging people into hyper-specific roles at the cost of productivity.

If the company cared about that being a huge drag on productivity, it would bring it up with the unions. Pathological management is around everywhere.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#417

Post by s73ver_ »

stale2002 wrote: post #310
s73ver_ wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes there it. If a union takes over the workforce of your company, now you have to follow the union rules." Yes. Which they, as the union, would decide on.

What if I don't want to follow those rules? What if instead, I want to negotiate my own work contract? If a union comes in, I have no option. I do not want other people voting on my contract. This is why I will always fight the establishment of a union in the tech industry. I do not want to be governed by the union rules, so I am not going to allow this stuff to be established in the first place.

"What if I don't want to follow those rules?"

Same as if you don't want to follow any other rules laid down by your job.

"What if instead, I want to negotiate my own work contract?"

Nobody's saying you can't do that.

"If a union comes in, I have no option. I do not want other people voting on my contract."

You don't have any evidence of that.

"This is why I will always fight the establishment of a union in the tech industry. I do not want to be governed by the union rules, so I am not going to allow this stuff to be established in the first place."

So because you think you're a snowflake, you don't want things to improve for other people.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#418

Post by s73ver_ »

stale2002 wrote: post #317
s73ver_ wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about a 1 size fits all solution? Why do you insist that's how it has to be? The Screen Actors Guild, the Directors Guild, and the Writers Guild don't work like that. Pro athlete unions don't work like that. Why would you think that tech would have to?

The whole point of those groups is to put up barriers to entry, which is something I extremely oppose. It is also about forcing people into their collective bargaining process. I do not want anyone else to ever negotiate for me. I will negotiate for myself, because I am the one person who is most incentived to look out for myself. Furthermore, once a union is established, it is very difficult to opt out. The screen a…

"The whole point of those groups is to put up barriers to entry, which is something I extremely oppose."

No, it's not.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#419

Post by s73ver_ »

JPKab wrote: post #302
s73ver_ wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition." You say "compete", but I'll bet these people would say "earn a living wage."

I say this as someone who grew up in a poor, rural community in a single parent household with 5 siblings, and was a construction worker being paid an hourly wage until around 25 years of age: If the labor you are selling to somebody isn't priced high enough to pay your bills, you need to ask yourself: 1) Is someone else willing to pay me more for this labor? 2) If yes, go work for them. If no, then the market has sp…

Your above statement shows that you do not have any empathy or compassion for those people, as you do not want to give them the opportunity to earn a living wage. And I find it very dishonest of you to refer to collective bargaining as a handout, or say that if they are able to negotiate something, that it is more than they are worth. If they are able to get that deal, does that not mean they are worth that much?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#420

Post by joshuamorton »

Clubber wrote: post #246
morgante wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean right now you hear about high demand for tech people, but wages don't reflect that. By what metric? Software developers can make $250k+ in SV. I have a hard time imagining pay doubling broadly. Only a small cohort of employers could sustain paying engineers $500k+, though I suppose it is possible.

Software developers wages have stagnated for at least the last 10 years. http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread/81424.html So I'll ask again, since developers are in such high demand, why do you think wages haven't increased?

Pretty much everything that article says about SF is wrong. A "small detached bungalow" in the suburbs will probably go for half what they suggest, and 120K is not subsistence wages. I currently live on less than that, in a nice area, spend money on things I want to, don't budget aggressively, and save a significant portion of my income.

Sure, you probably won't be purchasing a family home on a single (entry level) income, but that's true in pretty much any suburban or urban area.

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