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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#351

Post by Clubber »

stale2002 wrote: post #312
Clubber wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unions do things like engage in age discrimination by favoring senior members over all else. I think you mean unions negotiate for relatively higher pay for people who have been with the company longer, or with more experience, but it would also negotiate higher pay for new hires relative to a non-union shop. You're also thinking of manufacturing unions. I suspect a tech union would be a little different. Things lik…

I am not going to support anyone or any group that plans on putting up barriers to entry or outright discrimination. If a company wants to hire someone, they deserve that job, and it is ridiculous that an uninvolved group would be able to stop that hire from happen. Them have different color skin, because they were born in an "off shore" country is no excuse to discriminate against them.

>I am not going to support anyone or any group that plans on putting up barriers to entry or outright discrimination.

You mean like pointless tech quizzes on minutia that only a young college graduate with zero experience (and cheaper) would remember?

>it is ridiculous that an uninvolved group would be able to stop that hire from happen.

I don't believe unions prevent companies from hiring people.

>Them have different color skin,

Looking at tech companies, they don't seem to be bothered by skin tone.

>because they were born in an "off shore" country is no excuse to discriminate against them.

If they aren't citizens, there is absolutely an excuse to discriminate agains them, just like their "offshore" home country discriminates against foreign workers trying to work there. There have been countless articles about TATA and their ilk not only discriminating for positions in their home countries but for positions they've won the US.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#352

Post by Clubber »

morgante wrote: post #324
ryandrake wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. "Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. > I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there in…

> If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing In my corner of the world, they definitely are. I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the fact that there are essentially two developer job markets: prime and sub-prime. The prime developer market is for top-tier developers who work at top tech companies and startups, primarily in SV & NYC. The sub-prime developer market is all the developers working…

So what would the average prime developer expect to make in SV?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#353

Post by morgante »

Clubber wrote: post #352
morgante wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing In my corner of the world, they definitely are. I think a lot of these discussions are complicated by the fact that there are essentially two developer job markets: prime and sub-prime. The prime developer market is for top-tier developers who work at top tech companies and startups, primarily in SV & NYC. The sub-prime developer market is all the developers working…

So what would the average prime developer expect to make in SV?

$200-300k in total compensation.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#354

Post by [deleted] »

Clubber wrote: post #350
morgante wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't dispute that there are poorly-run companies which want to underpay and abuse their developers. We don't need a union to solve those companies. Just don't work for them.

>Just don't work for them. That's a pretty unrealistic solution, especially considering most companies are trying to reduce costs and don't understand the economics of good equipment. If you don't like hurricanes, just move away from the coast. Simple. /s

[deleted]

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#355

Post by sokoloff »

deathanatos wrote: post #327
ryandrake wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. "Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. > I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there in…

> The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants. I don't know whether to think it is real, or that it is a myth. It's true that tech companies are picky, it's true that salaries are not skyrocketing. Open reqs attract hundreds of unqualified applicants, at least, t…

> Open reqs attract hundreds of unqualified applicants, at least, that was my impression.

Matches my experience on the hiring side. Even after we filter heavily long before they get to me, within the last month, had a candidate for a senior software position who literally asked "What is AWS?"

I can only presume that guy files loads of applications and goes on every interview he's offered.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#356

Post by sokoloff »

ryandrake wrote: post #322
Clubber wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. A past job, I automated away jobs at $0.10 on the dollar and made a healthy salary, but it obviously was 1/10th of what I was worth. I left that company and all those jobs are still automated away and the more the company grows, the more they save. Also a tech union could push for perks like developer offices, remote work, better work equip…

As someone who's lived through two awful tech downturns so far, now is also the time because the going is relatively good. People will be wishing they did the next time tech downturns and the layoffs begin...

Do you want the layoffs to be based solely on your union seniority number rather your individual value to the on-going company?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#357

Post by stale2002 »

Clubber wrote: post #351
stale2002 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not going to support anyone or any group that plans on putting up barriers to entry or outright discrimination. If a company wants to hire someone, they deserve that job, and it is ridiculous that an uninvolved group would be able to stop that hire from happen. Them have different color skin, because they were born in an "off shore" country is no excuse to discriminate against them.

>I am not going to support anyone or any group that plans on putting up barriers to entry or outright discrimination. You mean like pointless tech quizzes on minutia that only a young college graduate with zero experience (and cheaper) would remember? >it is ridiculous that an uninvolved group would be able to stop that hire from happen. I don't believe unions prevent companies from hiring people. >Them have differen…

And that's called racism. I don't care if other countries discriminate against us. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I will not ever support an organization that is outright discriminatory like that, whether it is based on skin color or citizenship.

Also, unions DO indeed prevent people from being hired. That's why right to work laws exist.

Right to work is the idea that if a company hires you, it is illegal for a union to force you to join.

There are companies where you are forced to join the union.

Ex, the screen writers and actors guild require people who work at certain companies to join them.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#358

Post by coredog64 »

sangnoir wrote: post #258
ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why he's getting downvoted. Unions are only interested in company's existence but even then very often they are willing to see it go to the brink not budging on concessions etc. Not to mention the whole objection to the "right to work" approach.

> Not sure why he's getting downvoted Because his fact-free attack is demonstrably wrong. The majority of unions are invested in the companies they provide labor for. By way of example, Germany has unions that are evidently committed to the company's existence - to the extent that labor being represented at board level is not unusual. That is the kind of, ahem, synergy that should exist between capital and labor, but…

US unions are required to have a more combative relationship with management than their German counterparts. There's a USSC decision (the name escapes me at the moment) that makes unions offer equal representation to all. So unless there is criminality, the union can't decide that you are incompetent and should find a new career. From discussions with German union members, they do have that flexibility.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#359

Post by yeukhon »

noobermin wrote: post #255
ic4l wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't last long. Few more years, and it will be a autonomous fleet anyways.

You might have missed this discussion from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15116861

We are far from "few years."

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#360

Post by Clubber »

morgante wrote: post #353
Clubber wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would the average prime developer expect to make in SV?

$200-300k in total compensation.

I don't want this to sound like it probably does but that's not overly impressive for a place like SV. I mean it sounds like a lot before you calculate cost of living (and it would be a lot here). A good self disciplined developer where I live (accounting for cost of living) would make the north end of that from a not very known company (that's not even a software company). A not great maintenance developer that requires a lot of direction with 5 years experience would make about $150K in SV (adjusted).

I'm pointing this out because it's important for developers to know at least their (adjusted) market value. The taboo about salaries only stands to help employers. Also, it's a negotiating tactic to have the other person throw out the first number, that's why job listings rarely list salaries.

For me, the only way I would gain is to collect a large (adjusted) salary for a few years, keeping my expenses as low as possible (not that easy in SV), then moving back to a lower cost of living area. That doesn't seem to be worth the trouble though.

FWIW, I would expect a prime developer working for one of the big five to make at least double that based on what they contribute to the bottom line. That's not going to happen with the way the negotiation is stacked against an individual.

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