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Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

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Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#41

Post by strictfp »

exabrial wrote: post #40

This is awesome. CDI, JAXRS, JPA, JTA, and JMS are brilliant technologies but are held down by the weight of legacy technologies. Maybe we can finally see Java EE based solely on CDI, which would kick every platform out of the water. Scopes take dependency injection to the next level and finally fulfills the promise of modular, testable, reusable code.

You really drank the coolaid I can see. I think dependency injection frameworks are a bad idea in general, and it seems as if the current trend goes against using them. Also I won't be expecting much good to happen after Eclipse takes over, they tend to complect implementation and not really drive development IMO.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#42

Post by tannhaeuser »

pjmlp wrote: post #37
camus2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone explain what Java EE really means? I tried to parse the bundle and license the last time this came up, and I didn't really get anywhere. It's no different than Web standards between browsers, it's a collection of API specifications describing how web applications should be architectured in Java. Then different libraries can follow the spec. JavaEE also has a reference implementation which used to be don…

Most enterprise shops do care about JSF. I know of many greenfield projects using it, mainly PrimeFaces.

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits.

I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or who can't or don't want to invest into JavaScript or another web stack, but I think a responsible consultant should tell these customers that their stack is on life support now.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#43

Post by cjsuk »

strictfp wrote: post #41
exabrial wrote: post #40

This is awesome. CDI, JAXRS, JPA, JTA, and JMS are brilliant technologies but are held down by the weight of legacy technologies. Maybe we can finally see Java EE based solely on CDI, which would kick every platform out of the water. Scopes take dependency injection to the next level and finally fulfills the promise of modular, testable, reusable code.

You really drank the coolaid I can see. I think dependency injection frameworks are a bad idea in general, and it seems as if the current trend goes against using them. Also I won't be expecting much good to happen after Eclipse takes over, they tend to complect implementation and not really drive development IMO.

Where is this sudden DI framework hate coming from? It's just magic object glue that assembles everything based on contract.

It's that or factory factory factories or sticky tape. Those are much worse.

All the Java EE tech is just a set of contracts really with some canned implementations that magic object glue sticks together.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#44

Post by godzillabrennus »

pjmlp wrote: post #35
georgeecollins wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing makes me doubt the future of Swift like this sentence.

For IBM one of the pillars of cloud computing is Swift. https://www.ibm.com/cloud-computing/bluemix/swift They used to be one of the main contributors of Swift on Linux.

Now IBM just needs to obtain cloud customers to support said pillars...

Poor ole big blue has seen better days...

Watten Buffet even wrote it off.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#45

Post by lolive »

cjsuk wrote: post #43
strictfp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really drank the coolaid I can see. I think dependency injection frameworks are a bad idea in general, and it seems as if the current trend goes against using them. Also I won't be expecting much good to happen after Eclipse takes over, they tend to complect implementation and not really drive development IMO.

Where is this sudden DI framework hate coming from? It's just magic object glue that assembles everything based on contract. It's that or factory factory factories or sticky tape. Those are much worse. All the Java EE tech is just a set of contracts really with some canned implementations that magic object glue sticks together.

Factory factory factories... ;) http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431....

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#46

Post by cjsuk »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #42
pjmlp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most enterprise shops do care about JSF. I know of many greenfield projects using it, mainly PrimeFaces.

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits. I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or…

A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch office and there's a headache from hell on your plate.

Fortunately they're all starting to kick out chrome for business now.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#47

Post by dfabulich »

My impression is that nobody uses any of the code shipped in Java EE. People use Servlet containers (Tomcat and JBoss) but the problems you can solve with EJB, JSF, JPA, JMS, etc. are all better solved with open source libraries, e.g. Guice, Spring, and Hibernate.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#48

Post by cjsuk »

lolive wrote: post #45
cjsuk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is this sudden DI framework hate coming from? It's just magic object glue that assembles everything based on contract. It's that or factory factory factories or sticky tape. Those are much worse. All the Java EE tech is just a set of contracts really with some canned implementations that magic object glue sticks together.

Factory factory factories... ;) http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431....

That was a nod to that article actually.

No one does that now. Someone does some thinking, writes a strong interface, then builds the code behind it. There's usually only one implementation. The advantage comes at the testing phase when you have strong interfaces to mock.

I can count on one hand the amount of things we do with multiple inplementations and that's mainly switching cache and file store implementations out depending on who paid for what.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#49

Post by tannhaeuser »

cjsuk wrote: post #46
tannhaeuser wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits. I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or…

A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch…

Maybe for those customers it might make sense to donate to the Eclipse foundation to keep JSF etc. alive and to keep Java-only devs afloat? But then maintenance of J2EE has ceased because it's not economically feasible.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#50

Post by smcleod »

rectang wrote: post #22
wocram wrote: post #16

Isnt the eclipse foundation where projects go to die?

Sheesh, there's always someone with this take on foundations. I've heard the exact same phrase many times with "Apache" (where I used to be very active) instead of "Eclipse". :\ Large projects tend to end up under the various foundations because large projects have lots of common problems that the foundations help solve and it doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel every time (e.g. by starting your own foundation).…

I would tend to agree with those that say the Apache foundation is where projects go to die, to me the Apache foundation feels like a library of legacy often heavy code. OpenOffice (LibreOffice by comparison is doing ‘well’), Wave, Zookeeper, Apache itself etc...
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