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EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

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Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#81

Post by drivingmenuts »

>It even means a restaurant should be able to refuse to seat (pick one): black people, white people, males, redheads, left-handed people or introverts.

That is an odd position for a man in a mixed-race marriage with a mixed-race child to take, because not too long ago it would have meant his child might not be served or seated. It's only because our government took steps to end discrimination (after being forced to do so by the people) that it's safe to hold such unenlightened opinions. I wonder if he'll ever explain to his own child that it's OK they were discriminated against because "corporate Darwinism".

One can and should be able to discriminate all day long on the basis of ideas or actions, which is what has happened with Anglin and his crew of a-holes (sort of - I suspect it's more ass-covering than principle in a lot of cases).

But, discrimination should not happen based on something an individual cannot change, which is what the OP seems to be OK with.

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#82

Post by ve55 »

Frondo wrote: post #59
bmelton wrote: post #3

Somewhat dichotomously, I agree with every position mark takes in the linked post, but at the same time, I'm quietly waiting to see where Daily Stormer ends up landing, so that I can start treating them as the 'real' bastions of free speech, and very likely start throwing them my business. It isn't because I'm sympathetic to the nazis in this scenario, but if you're trying to position yourself as "the free speech reg…

Preface: this is an honest question, stemming from my own life and current group of friends--the circumstances that frame the issue for me--it isn't intended as snark or a take-down or anything... Do you have many friends right now who are people of color, or queer/gay, or even Jewish? How do you explain to them that you'd like to support the business that goes against the grain and hosts Nazi/white supremacist mater…

What is their fear based on?

If their friends are being physically assaulted for those reasons, then it makes sense for them to fear for themselves.

If their fear is based off of sensationalist news articles that significantly over-exaggerate the political climate and influence of various groups in order to generate advertising revenue/clicks, they should reconsider, even if it's difficult. There are far more articles about the KKK on the Internet than there are actual members of the KKK https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-w....

Those living in fear should try to rationalize about the probabilities of events happening to them based off of relevant statistics, not articles specifically designed to incite fear and anger.

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#83

Post by sleepychu »

joshuaheard wrote: post #33

This is part of a disturbing new trend of "political discrimination". If someone opposes the policies of an identity group, in this case mixed-race marriages, but it could be women, gays, or rural white Christians, then that opposition is labeled "hate". Once labeled, their speech is deemed offensive and censored, and they become fair game for political discrimination, to be fired from their jobs, kicked off social m…

Can you explain what you mean by the "policies of an identity group"?

In general the minority identity groups only policy is that they ought to be treated just like everyone else. I'd say that if you're trying to maintain a status quo where the majority is treated preferentially that your opposition is "hate" as is meant by the word today.

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#84

Post by submersiveblue »

mrguyorama wrote: post #67
ceejayoz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Deny them DNS, Deny them DDOS protection, Deny them hosting, whats left? I mean, not being a neo-Nazi is an option...

The fear that most Free Speech absolutists have is that tomorrow it will be: "I mean, not being a socialist|capitalist|religious individual is an option..." From an Ideals perspective, its a valid and valiant fear, but I don't understand the absolutist position. Legitimate verbal threats are still allowed under absolute free speech, but they obviously produce harm. Should we really allow anyone to threaten the life o…

Anything that doesn't directly call for violence. If you're presenting a position that others are free to evaluate on the merits, then free speech covers it. The point of allowing free speech is to be open to the truth. That doesn't mean that the truth is never ugly or in disharmony with fashionable opinion.

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#85

Post by Geekette »

"I uphold the right for any business to decide for themselves who they will or will not conduct business with. In the long run I firmly believe an unfettered free market would sort out who is on the right side or the wrong side of history. ... It even means a restaurant should be able to refuse to seat (pick one): black people, white people, males, redheads, left-handed people or introverts. Whatever. They probably won’t stay in business very long, it’s a form of corporate Darwinism. ... But as a man in an interracial marriage with a mixed-race child, being asked to risk our business and our customers, to put our asses on the line for a bunch of white supremacists?"

Bollocks. I agree with the right of his company to refuse to host a neonazi/hate speech mongering site. However, it wasn't the "unfettered free market" that resulted in civil rights laws being implemented, it was long drawn out resistance (with great costs especially to minorities' lives) and eventual government intervention that changed the status quo in the US and to suggest otherwise is asinine.

His reasoning also falsely suggests that he'd be fine with repeated psychological harm at minimum to his family if they were to face multiple blatantly racist encounters like being insulted/threatened/refused service anywhere because of who they are, since they'd be comforted with knowing the free market would eventually sort it out.

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#86

Post by rjsw »

cpursley wrote: post #51
abritinthebay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely does meet those criteria and then some. They aren’t called Nazi’s because people disagree with them but because they are actual Nazis

> because they are actual Nazis I'm not defending these people, but are they really Nazis? Or just angry, uneducated and disenfranchised white people?

A publication that chooses the name The DailyStormer clearly wants people to think that it is by and for Nazis. We executed the publisher of the newspaper whose name it echoes [1] after the Nuremberg trials.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_St%C3%BCrmer

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#87

Post by Domenic_S »

sporkenfang wrote: post #62
bmelton wrote: post #3

Somewhat dichotomously, I agree with every position mark takes in the linked post, but at the same time, I'm quietly waiting to see where Daily Stormer ends up landing, so that I can start treating them as the 'real' bastions of free speech, and very likely start throwing them my business. It isn't because I'm sympathetic to the nazis in this scenario, but if you're trying to position yourself as "the free speech reg…

So the thing about free speech is https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment the first amendment means the government shouldn't be able to suppress what you say. That's all. Corporations aren't the government and shouldn't be held to the same standards.

This is such an intellectually lazy stance to take (I know, you thought you were being clever, but believe me this is the least clever thing to say about free speech).

1A doesn't have anything to do with it -- either free speech is a concept worth protecting, or it isn't. John Stuart Mill wrote at some length about it, and in particular about what happens when the population at large decides they don't like your speech.

Let's take this to its logical end -- let's say Joe wants to host a legal but repugnant site. Cloudflare doesn't want to protect it, ok; EasyDNS won't host it, sure; now let's say Comcast gets involved. They don't think Joe should have internet because he's espousing ideas they don't like, so they cut him off. Same with his mobile provider. Hell, what's to stop the local grocery store from banning him? Point being, Joe could _legally_ be forcibly removed from society for having opinions some people don't like.

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#88

Post by KGIII »

pnathan wrote: post #65
bmelton wrote: post #3

Somewhat dichotomously, I agree with every position mark takes in the linked post, but at the same time, I'm quietly waiting to see where Daily Stormer ends up landing, so that I can start treating them as the 'real' bastions of free speech, and very likely start throwing them my business. It isn't because I'm sympathetic to the nazis in this scenario, but if you're trying to position yourself as "the free speech reg…

There's a distinction between the government repressing speech and private businesses refusing to give the speech-maker a platform. Further, certain kinds of speech have never been considered protected: "fighting words", certain classes of harassment, fomenting seditious, the famous "fire!" in a crowded theater. Note, too, it's easy to draw a line around advocating for racial supremacy and genocide without stepping o…

Would you agree, then, that Internet access is now a basic human right? If so, would you also agree that said access should include some platform where one is entitled to ownership and thus the freedom of expression - within the bounds of the law?

I really dislike Nazis, but I love the liberty of free speech more. It's hard to stand up for them, but it's not 'correct' speech that needs protection.

And no, no I don't have realistic answers - other than to suggest we consider adding those protections to domain registry and regulate ISPs to ensure the ability of hosting private servers.

I'm okay with saying nobody needs to host it. I'm not really okay with the domain not being allowed to be registered. There should be a solution for this.

If I don't stand up for the freedom of expression for the lowliest of views, then I didn't stand for it at all.

Edited to add:

I posted it below, but I think it salient here - even if just for contrast. I am not white. I'm pretty sure these Nazis hate me. Given the chance, they'd probably harm me. Until they make an overt threat, or attempt, to do so - I am still not okay with depriving them of basic human rights.

Yes, I feel that strongly about the freedom of expression. They don't scare me. I will never live in fear, nor will I ask that someone's rights be taken away without due process. My principles apply to more than speech which agree with.

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#89

Post by gruez »

Torgo wrote: post #30

Their reasoning seems to be this: We are a free speech registrar. free speech means a private company shouldn't be forced to host content it disagrees with. We are a company and we disagree with the content, therefore we will not host it. OK fine, but this reduces "free speech registrar" to something pretty meaningless from a consumer point of view.

free speech, for us

Re: EasyDNS refuses to host The DailyStormer domain

#90

Post by Majestic121 »

Frondo wrote: post #59
bmelton wrote: post #3

Somewhat dichotomously, I agree with every position mark takes in the linked post, but at the same time, I'm quietly waiting to see where Daily Stormer ends up landing, so that I can start treating them as the 'real' bastions of free speech, and very likely start throwing them my business. It isn't because I'm sympathetic to the nazis in this scenario, but if you're trying to position yourself as "the free speech reg…

Preface: this is an honest question, stemming from my own life and current group of friends--the circumstances that frame the issue for me--it isn't intended as snark or a take-down or anything... Do you have many friends right now who are people of color, or queer/gay, or even Jewish? How do you explain to them that you'd like to support the business that goes against the grain and hosts Nazi/white supremacist mater…

They would not be standing for the Daily Stormer, they would be standing for Free Speech.

The concept that allowed the struggles from minorities to be heard in the first place, and therefore to improve things tremendously for gay and black people.

We can see that this is not a given, for example Russia is starting to crack down on 'pro-gay' speech : http://thegroundtruthproject.org/russias-assault-on-gay-free...

But defending free speech is sometimes hard, because it also means letting people you disagree with speak freely even if it obvious to you they're spewing bullshit. You can't force them to stop, legally or otherwise, but you can expose their bullshit for what it is.

It is much harder to actually argue with someone (or 100 of people), especially when they're unreasonable/stupid, than to shut them down. However, the alternative is to have some kind of moral police to decide what is allowed or not, and force the literally unquestionable selected truth on everyone, which is much more dangerous overall in my opinion (see what could be done with Trump and climate change, or Putin with gay people).

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