Higher Education Erodes • Hacker News Board

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#21

Post by program_whiz » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:06 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #14

program_whiz wrote: post #10

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

"we assume the "system" is at fault" ... which is, of course, inconceivable. "Either you are racist and think "asians are better than everyone else", or you have to concede that culture and virtues are the cause" Or might it be the likelihood that the Asians who are in the US in the first place tend to be a very tiny percentage of relatively fortunate families from their own societies back in Asia, and elites tend to…

According to NYT, the effect is present even on poor and working-class asian families. They also attribute to culture (but like you point out this isn't true for all minorities, only Asians):

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/opinion/sunday/the-asian-...

NYT Quote: "Why should the success of the children of Asian doctors, nurtured by teachers, be reassuring to a black boy in Baltimore who is raised by a struggling single mom, whom society regards as a potential menace? Disadvantage and marginalization are complex, often deeply rooted in social structures and unconscious biases, sometimes compounded by hopelessness and self-destructive behaviors, and because one group can access the American dream does not mean that all groups can."

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#22

Post by Dirlewanger » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:08 PM UTC

tw1010 wrote: post #16

I bet the US will end up fine in the end though due to draining the brains of other countries.

draining the brains of other countries...who then go right back to said countries after they finish their education.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#23

Post by 5trokerac3 » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:17 PM UTC

thebiglebrewski wrote: post #19

5trokerac3 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had decades to turn this around. Neither party gives a shit. In fact, they both directly benefit from a drop in critical thinking ability among the general populace. I truly believe the next generation's elite will primarily be those whose parent's were smart enough and well-to-do enough to take them out of one size fits all public education and put them in Socratic, Montessori, or some other alternate school.

...do you really think that neither party gives a shit though? These days I kind of find that hard to believe, at least as far as the people in the White House now...

Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#24

Post by ZoeZoeBee » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:18 PM UTC

spoiledtechie wrote: post #6

taylodl wrote: post #3

Shouldn't the market take care of this? Apparently there are colleges willing to "dumb-down" their curriculum to maintain graduation rates, but those colleges will become a black mark on one's CV and so the good students would choose not to attend those colleges, right?

Shouldn't the market take care of this? Only if students can pick their HS, rather than be placed in one by their zip code. Bad schools, make bad students, but students can't leave bad schools, due to their zipcodes... Education reform on zipcodes is a MUST.

School of choice has been the law of the land in most states for a while now.

http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/mbquestRT?rep=OE1601

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#25

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:21 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #21

pmoriarty wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we assume the "system" is at fault" ... which is, of course, inconceivable. "Either you are racist and think "asians are better than everyone else", or you have to concede that culture and virtues are the cause" Or might it be the likelihood that the Asians who are in the US in the first place tend to be a very tiny percentage of relatively fortunate families from their own societies back in Asia, and elites tend to…

According to NYT, the effect is present even on poor and working-class asian families. They also attribute to culture (but like you point out this isn't true for all minorities, only Asians): https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/opinion/sunday/the-asian-... NYT Quote: "Why should the success of the children of Asian doctors, nurtured by teachers, be reassuring to a black boy in Baltimore who is raised by a struggling s…

"the effect is present even on poor and working-class asian families"

They might be poor in the US, but that doesn't mean they didn't come from relatively privileged families back in their home countries.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#26

Post by thebiglebrewski » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

5trokerac3 wrote: post #23

thebiglebrewski wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...do you really think that neither party gives a shit though? These days I kind of find that hard to believe, at least as far as the people in the White House now...

Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.

Haha wait though, why is good to "change the status quo" if it results in deep cuts to public school funding (in support of "school choice")? https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-...

Is this what you're saying?

To talk about my views a little, I disagree with the whole, "No Child Left Behind" thing and increased standardized testing. I think we need to worry more about kids getting into what they're learning and learning all the critical skills they need like reading comprehension, algebra/math, critical thinking, etc, rather than focusing on test results (which don't seem to support that goal).

Yeah, change the status quo, but the change she's supporting don't seem to help the issue we're discussing here - unless you have some contrary sources? Down to hear about them.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#27

Post by austenallred » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #10

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

Also based on the reality that we're requiring college degrees for everything, despite the fact that a lot of what's taught in college could easily be taught in a trade school.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#28

Post by technofire » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #18

taylodl wrote: post #3

Shouldn't the market take care of this? Apparently there are colleges willing to "dumb-down" their curriculum to maintain graduation rates, but those colleges will become a black mark on one's CV and so the good students would choose not to attend those colleges, right?

Shouldn't the market take care of this In some ways I think it already has. I wouldn't look at a degree as a sign of fundamental competence and I don't think most other people would either. Maybe that's overly optimistic.

Agreed. Certainly nobody should be hiring based principally on a candidate's alma mater. A candidate should be interviewed to find out that they know what they need to know and have the skills required. Really, college education is mostly irrelevant in practice.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#29

Post by analog31 » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #10

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, pursue higher education, and have the highest paying / stable jobs of any culture.

It might point to the same conclusion, but I'd need to see a result that is controlled for parental education and wealth, and also be shown that being "asian" in the US equates with a culture.

Anecdata: In my locale, the "asian" kids do have a different education system: Most of them live in the neighborhoods, and attend elementary schools, that generally have the highest level of educated and affluent parents. Many of those "asian" kids are adopted.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#30

Post by dsfyu404ed » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

qq66 wrote: post #15

taylodl wrote: post #3

Shouldn't the market take care of this? Apparently there are colleges willing to "dumb-down" their curriculum to maintain graduation rates, but those colleges will become a black mark on one's CV and so the good students would choose not to attend those colleges, right?

This is happening, but unfortunately information is not perfect (a random hiring manager doesn't know that Cal State is loosening requirements but Oregon State is not) so actually the brand value of all state and community colleges is decreasing, which will have the opposite to desired effect on social mobility. CUNY has probably graduated as many Nobel Laureates as MIT undergrad, but it will be tarred with the same…

>weakened the associated opprobrium, because people think of being "-ist" as a less bad offense since so many more people seem to be doing it these days.

This applies to all rules that govern what we consider normal behavior.

When (basically) everyone is ignoring the insanely low posted speed limit the result is (basically) everyone driving the speed they feel appropriate for the conditions.

When everyone knows a few gay people nobody sees the point to criminalizing being gay.

A lot of people were STFUing because they were afraid of not being PC. Now that people are seeing people say even more extreme things than they wanted to say without being seriously punished they're saying those things too. Something good will probably come of all this but change is never easy or fun. It's unlikely that we'll return to a culture that accepts outright racism. Hopefully we won't continue to perpetuate a culture in which any attempt at having a frank discussion involving a touchy subject is not chilled by a fear of being name called as a BoogymanOfTheDay (e.g. racist, communist, etc).