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Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

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Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#31

Post by mattmcknight »

ams6110 wrote: post #27
sliverstorm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I mean, we can agree that if there is a glitch that makes the ECU think the throttle is WFO, the log will say WFO. The important thing is that the log also says the brakes were completely inactive. Also, consider that the brakes will operate no matter what the ECU thinks, and in at least one case the brake pads themselves were examined, and experts concluded they had not recently been applied at high speeds u…

I recall at least a few reports, I think one was on a recorded 911 call and another observed by a state trooper following, that brakes were applied and after the car was ultimately stopped there was evidence (burned brake pads, brake rotors discolored by heat, etc.) that the brakes were in fact used. It may be that there were a few genuine throttle malfunctions which, once reported, brought all the "accidentally step…

If you are referring to the Sikes case near San Diego, that was likely a hoax perpetuated by a bankrupt insurance scammer, an expert driver who supposedly didn't want to put it in neutral and was observed speeding up and slowing down.

The car rental agencies stacking double floor mats is a real issue though, regardless of car model. I had a Saturn where a secondary mat slid under the pedal and got trapped. I never understood the purpose of floor mats anyway. I just take them out.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#32

Post by andrewtj »

ams6110 wrote: post #23
[deleted] wrote: post #16

[deleted]

Same thing happened to me in a fast-food drive thru. I was behind an elderly woman who was driving a Buick (no, really --- you see how these stereotypes gain traction). First, she overshot the pickup window. She reversed, but ended up too far away to reach the food being handed out. So she decided to get out of the car, but left it in reverse. As she got out of the car and her foot came off the brake, the car started…

The idea of growing old and having my facilities degrade like that truly scares me.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#34

Post by stretchwithme »

124816 wrote: post #21
zb wrote: post #7

I'd love to see some statistics on the number of these incidents that have occurred with Toyotas versus other makes as a proportion of the total fleet. These incidents happen all the time, and it almost always turns out that the driver was standing on the accelerator instead of the brake. (Naturally they adamantly deny it - if they'd thought they were pressing the accelerator they would have stopped, after all. Every…

Not sure if you saw the graph hidden in the side: "Complaints rose after Toyota recalled 3.8 million vehicles in November..." -- it makes the same case as you. Let's have an experiment: another manufacturer can institute a fake recall and see what happens. > Naturally they adamantly deny it And, thanks to the nature of human memory, after the first few times they aren't even intentionally lying. (A memory is part rec…

people can't seem to acknowledge that they're getting fuzzier as they get older. I know! Its happening to me and I refuse to acknowledge it as well.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#35

Post by InclinedPlane »

sliverstorm wrote: post #13

> Ms. Marseille said in an interview Tuesday that she was entering a parking space near a library when she heard the engine roar. "I looked down and my foot was still on the brake, so I did not have my foot on the gas pedal," she said. Ms. Marseille, if you are so sure that is what happened, I invite you to sit in my friend's '09 Camry, and from a stop, stand on the brakes and then simultaneously floor the engine. Le…

I agree with this. However, I will make a devil's advocate comment re: braking vs. acceleration. People almost never fully emergency brake, even in actual emergencies. More often than not people feather the brake and then press it harder if they found that the car was not braking as it should, continuing until they are pressing the brake harder than they would normally ever press it but not necessarily as hard as they possibly could. In such a scenario, a very realistic scenario, it might be possible that the car would still accelerate at full throttle.

Not that I'm saying that's what happened, it appears not, but it's not terribly outside the realm of possibility.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#36

Post by brc »

I think the fact that over half of the quotes in this articles is from lawyers tells the real story here. Lawyers see a recall, a rich multinational, and some dumb people who will swear that they didn't hit the accelerator instead of the brake.

The NHTSA is a thorough organisation - this isn't some sham front for Toyota.

I just wish someone would publish statistics on make/model for unintended acceleration accidents. I bet the Toyota case is not statistically significantly higher than all other makes and models. But give people something other than their own stupidity to blame and they will grasp it with 5 hands.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#37

Post by pmjordan »

My initial thought when hearing about all of this was exactly that: they hit the accelerator instead of the brakes. It took me a while to realise why they weren't standing on the clutch: most cars in the US have automatic gearboxes.

I'm guessing this sort of thing basically doesn't happen when you have a clutch, which, if you're used to driving cars with a manual transmission, you'll instinctively jump onto when braking. If you hit the gas instead of the brakes, you won't stop very fast, but at least you won't accelerate.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#38

Post by charliepark »

There was a piece on this in the Washington Examiner 4 months ago, here: http://bit.ly/dmG12o. It basically noted that almost all of the fatal accidents involved elderly drivers, who, presumably, would be more likely to get confused about which pedal they were pushing:

"In the 24 cases where driver age was reported or readily inferred, the drivers included those of the ages 60, 61, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 72, 77, 79, 83, 85, 89—and I’m leaving out the son whose age wasn’t identified, but whose 94-year-old father died as a passenger."

"These “electronic defects” apparently discriminate against the elderly, just as the sudden acceleration of Audis and GM autos did before them. (If computers are going to discriminate against anyone, they should be picking on the young, who are more likely to take up arms against the rise of the machines and future Terminators)."

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#39

Post by smackfu »

ianium wrote: post #29

"An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation." Gotta love how a scientific study by an impartial 3rd party never gets in the way of the legal balance of probabilities and a jury of average Americans.

So you were expecting the attorney to say "oh we are screwed now."

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#40

Post by bdurette »

124816 wrote: post #21
zb wrote: post #7

I'd love to see some statistics on the number of these incidents that have occurred with Toyotas versus other makes as a proportion of the total fleet. These incidents happen all the time, and it almost always turns out that the driver was standing on the accelerator instead of the brake. (Naturally they adamantly deny it - if they'd thought they were pressing the accelerator they would have stopped, after all. Every…

Not sure if you saw the graph hidden in the side: "Complaints rose after Toyota recalled 3.8 million vehicles in November..." -- it makes the same case as you. Let's have an experiment: another manufacturer can institute a fake recall and see what happens. > Naturally they adamantly deny it And, thanks to the nature of human memory, after the first few times they aren't even intentionally lying. (A memory is part rec…

Faking a recall is a bad idea. Consider the possibility that Toyota drivers were primed by the media hype to believe that the acceleration problems were real and out of their control. Thus, when they found themselves mistakenly pressing on the accelerator, they were less likely to reevaluate the situation. If they had, they would have realized what was happening and pressed the brakes. The accidents, regardless of cause, were real and dangerous. Inducing more accidents to prove a point is bad policy.
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