Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

online.wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 41 posts

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#11

Post by sliverstorm »

mustpax wrote: post #6

I wonder if the same sensors that provide the log data also control the engine. In that case, it would be impossible to distinguish a sensor glitch from user error by purely relying on in-system logging. This sort of thing happens all the time when debugging production servers. The same system usually provides the control signal and the diagnostic data. So what initially looks sane, if you keep investigate it, can le…

Really? I mean, we can agree that if there is a glitch that makes the ECU think the throttle is WFO, the log will say WFO.

The important thing is that the log also says the brakes were completely inactive.

Also, consider that the brakes will operate no matter what the ECU thinks, and in at least one case the brake pads themselves were examined, and experts concluded they had not recently been applied at high speeds under full force. The findings support eachother.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#12

Post by maukdaddy »

workingsmart wrote: post #9
mustpax wrote: post #6

I wonder if the same sensors that provide the log data also control the engine. In that case, it would be impossible to distinguish a sensor glitch from user error by purely relying on in-system logging. This sort of thing happens all the time when debugging production servers. The same system usually provides the control signal and the diagnostic data. So what initially looks sane, if you keep investigate it, can le…

I have to agree, the fact that this is a WSJ article makes me curious about the possibility that this is a Toyota-paid-for damage control article. Especially due to the FRBNY/WSJ editing scandal exposed by ZeroHedge last week. I expect this is a PR attempt by Toyota to discredit the lawsuits in the eyes of the general public and counter their dropping sales figures. Unless this diagnostic system is completely separat…

If you think the WSJ would try to cover up something for Toyota you're an idiot. This isn't some second-class blog we're talking about - it's WSJ.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#13

Post by sliverstorm »

> Ms. Marseille said in an interview Tuesday that she was entering a parking space near a library when she heard the engine roar. "I looked down and my foot was still on the brake, so I did not have my foot on the gas pedal," she said.

Ms. Marseille, if you are so sure that is what happened, I invite you to sit in my friend's '09 Camry, and from a stop, stand on the brakes and then simultaneously floor the engine. Let's see if you go anywhere.

There is a reason cars can brake many times faster than they accelerate. The only way to start moving in the above situation involves really big engines, manual transmissions, and careful 2-foot, 3-pedal technique.

> "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.

If someone has proof, it is neither sexist nor ageist. (I'm calling the surveillance video evidence that the brake lights did not go on proof. Brake lights basically can't malfunction, short of blown fuses or bulbs, yet they turned on after the impact)

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#14

Post by colonelxc »

DEADBEEF wrote: post #10

The NHTSA spokeswoman said the agency wouldn't comment on its Toyota probe until a broader study is completed in conjunction with NASA, which is expected to take months. NASA? really? They then went on to mention 'the National Academy of Sciences', so I'll assume it's a misprint.

Yes NASA, really.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/30/autos/NHTSA_NASA_Toyota/inde...

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which has been criticized for lacking sufficient technological expertise, has recruited nine experts from NASA to help the agency understand how issues such as electromagnetic interference may have contributed to Toyota's acceleration issues.

Separately, the National Academy of Sciences will conduct a study of unintended acceleration and electronic vehicle controls across the entire automotive industry.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#15

Post by jonafato »

sliverstorm wrote: post #13

> Ms. Marseille said in an interview Tuesday that she was entering a parking space near a library when she heard the engine roar. "I looked down and my foot was still on the brake, so I did not have my foot on the gas pedal," she said. Ms. Marseille, if you are so sure that is what happened, I invite you to sit in my friend's '09 Camry, and from a stop, stand on the brakes and then simultaneously floor the engine. Le…

Also, she mentions people saying "She probably hit the gas pedal instead", not "She probably hit the gas pedal instead because she is in a certain age range and female". People shouldn't confuse a statement about a person with a statement about a group, data supported or not.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#17

Post by kgermino »

pmccool wrote: post #4
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #3

Not too surprised either. But one thing I never understood is how a stuck pedal (one that's actually stuck) can lead to a car accelerating out of control. How could it possibly prevent you from taking the car out of gear, rolling to a stop and turning the thing off? Does it actually affect the ability to shift? Or are drivers just panicking and being dumb? Or do people who own a fancy automatic Lexus actually not kno…

In at least some incidents, it was impossible to change into neutral(owing to some electronic failsafe) and not at all obvious how to switch the ignition off. Non-obvious is bad bad bad when your throttle is suddenly stuck wide open.

Just curious, how can it be non-obvious how to stop the engine? Why couldn't the drivers simply turn back the key? Is there some safety feature I'm not aware of?

In my car there's nothing preventing you from completely removing the key while the car is in drive (this actually screwed me once when I parked on a hill and forgot to shift to park). Is this unusual?

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#18

Post by workingsmart »

maukdaddy wrote: post #12
workingsmart wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree, the fact that this is a WSJ article makes me curious about the possibility that this is a Toyota-paid-for damage control article. Especially due to the FRBNY/WSJ editing scandal exposed by ZeroHedge last week. I expect this is a PR attempt by Toyota to discredit the lawsuits in the eyes of the general public and counter their dropping sales figures. Unless this diagnostic system is completely separat…

If you think the WSJ would try to cover up something for Toyota you're an idiot. This isn't some second-class blog we're talking about - it's WSJ.

I'm new to hackernews and I thought maybe you people were as respectful as your mission statement suggests. This is Ad-hominem.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#19

Post by workingsmart »

maukdaddy wrote: post #12
workingsmart wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree, the fact that this is a WSJ article makes me curious about the possibility that this is a Toyota-paid-for damage control article. Especially due to the FRBNY/WSJ editing scandal exposed by ZeroHedge last week. I expect this is a PR attempt by Toyota to discredit the lawsuits in the eyes of the general public and counter their dropping sales figures. Unless this diagnostic system is completely separat…

If you think the WSJ would try to cover up something for Toyota you're an idiot. This isn't some second-class blog we're talking about - it's WSJ.

If you're here on HN to learn new things, you should read this article from ZeroHedge, about the WSJ and the way it panders to power and money.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/new-york-feds-editorial-inf...

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#20

Post by tghw »

pmccool wrote: post #4
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #3

Not too surprised either. But one thing I never understood is how a stuck pedal (one that's actually stuck) can lead to a car accelerating out of control. How could it possibly prevent you from taking the car out of gear, rolling to a stop and turning the thing off? Does it actually affect the ability to shift? Or are drivers just panicking and being dumb? Or do people who own a fancy automatic Lexus actually not kno…

In at least some incidents, it was impossible to change into neutral(owing to some electronic failsafe) and not at all obvious how to switch the ignition off. Non-obvious is bad bad bad when your throttle is suddenly stuck wide open.

The brake pedal is a pretty obvious user interface. Most people use it whenever they drive. In general, brakes will easily overpower the engine when fully applied. Car & Driver did some tests to be sure [1], and were able to stop a floored Camery going 70 MPH in 190 feet, only 16 feet further than with the throttle closed. Even if shifting or turning off the engine aren't an option (doubtful) the brakes are an obvious and simple way to bring the car back under control. There's really no avoiding the fact that driver error, or at least inaction, played a large part in these accidents.

[1](http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_u...)

Post reply on HN