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Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

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Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#21

Post by 124816 »

zb wrote: post #7

I'd love to see some statistics on the number of these incidents that have occurred with Toyotas versus other makes as a proportion of the total fleet. These incidents happen all the time, and it almost always turns out that the driver was standing on the accelerator instead of the brake. (Naturally they adamantly deny it - if they'd thought they were pressing the accelerator they would have stopped, after all. Every…

Not sure if you saw the graph hidden in the side: "Complaints rose after Toyota recalled 3.8 million vehicles in November..." -- it makes the same case as you.

Let's have an experiment: another manufacturer can institute a fake recall and see what happens.

> Naturally they adamantly deny it

And, thanks to the nature of human memory, after the first few times they aren't even intentionally lying. (A memory is part recall, part imagination. Replay something enough times, it can become more of the latter than the former.)

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#22

Post by kiujhygtfhyj »

zb wrote: post #7

I'd love to see some statistics on the number of these incidents that have occurred with Toyotas versus other makes as a proportion of the total fleet. These incidents happen all the time, and it almost always turns out that the driver was standing on the accelerator instead of the brake. (Naturally they adamantly deny it - if they'd thought they were pressing the accelerator they would have stopped, after all. Every…

The uncommanded accelrations are proprtional to the numbers of that car model on the market.

20years it was AUDI (accelerates under demonic influence) - it can't be the drivers cos they are Americans - it must be those foreign cars.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#23

Post by ams6110 »

[deleted] wrote: post #16

[deleted]

Same thing happened to me in a fast-food drive thru. I was behind an elderly woman who was driving a Buick (no, really --- you see how these stereotypes gain traction). First, she overshot the pickup window. She reversed, but ended up too far away to reach the food being handed out. So she decided to get out of the car, but left it in reverse. As she got out of the car and her foot came off the brake, the car started to roll backwards (automatic transmission). She quickly sat back down and --- I knew what was going to happen but I could not go anywhere --- she stepped on the accelerator. Luckily she was only a few feet in front of me by then and the damage was confined to the bumpers.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#24

Post by 124816 »

kgermino wrote: post #17
pmccool wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In at least some incidents, it was impossible to change into neutral(owing to some electronic failsafe) and not at all obvious how to switch the ignition off. Non-obvious is bad bad bad when your throttle is suddenly stuck wide open.

Just curious, how can it be non-obvious how to stop the engine? Why couldn't the drivers simply turn back the key? Is there some safety feature I'm not aware of? In my car there's nothing preventing you from completely removing the key while the car is in drive (this actually screwed me once when I parked on a hill and forgot to shift to park). Is this unusual?

Many of these cars have a power button -- if the "key" is inside the car, the button is activated. When the car is on, and in park, it will turn off with a simple press of the button, but when in motion that does not work.

(I've been told that holding the power button for several seconds, just like one would a crashed computer, will force a shutdown; can't verify that though.)

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#25

Post by ams6110 »

kgermino wrote: post #17
pmccool wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In at least some incidents, it was impossible to change into neutral(owing to some electronic failsafe) and not at all obvious how to switch the ignition off. Non-obvious is bad bad bad when your throttle is suddenly stuck wide open.

Just curious, how can it be non-obvious how to stop the engine? Why couldn't the drivers simply turn back the key? Is there some safety feature I'm not aware of? In my car there's nothing preventing you from completely removing the key while the car is in drive (this actually screwed me once when I parked on a hill and forgot to shift to park). Is this unusual?

Some newer cars don't have a key, they have a pushbutton on/off "switch" (not really a switch at all, just a signal to the computer that the driver wants to start the car). To "force shut off" a running car in gear, you have to hold the button down for several seconds (think rebooting a PC by holding the power button down for several seconds).

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#26

Post by dieterrams »

phaedrus wrote: post #5
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #3

Not too surprised either. But one thing I never understood is how a stuck pedal (one that's actually stuck) can lead to a car accelerating out of control. How could it possibly prevent you from taking the car out of gear, rolling to a stop and turning the thing off? Does it actually affect the ability to shift? Or are drivers just panicking and being dumb? Or do people who own a fancy automatic Lexus actually not kno…

The article says the data recorders indicated the brakes were not applied at all but the accelerator pedal was floored. In other words, people thinking they're standing on the brakes when really they're standing on the gas pedal. A person comfortable with technology will react to a surprising result by immediately changing what he's doing on the controls to search for cause and effect; for those who have difficulty w…

E.g., button mashing.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#27

Post by ams6110 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #11
mustpax wrote: post #6

I wonder if the same sensors that provide the log data also control the engine. In that case, it would be impossible to distinguish a sensor glitch from user error by purely relying on in-system logging. This sort of thing happens all the time when debugging production servers. The same system usually provides the control signal and the diagnostic data. So what initially looks sane, if you keep investigate it, can le…

Really? I mean, we can agree that if there is a glitch that makes the ECU think the throttle is WFO, the log will say WFO. The important thing is that the log also says the brakes were completely inactive. Also, consider that the brakes will operate no matter what the ECU thinks, and in at least one case the brake pads themselves were examined, and experts concluded they had not recently been applied at high speeds u…

I recall at least a few reports, I think one was on a recorded 911 call and another observed by a state trooper following, that brakes were applied and after the car was ultimately stopped there was evidence (burned brake pads, brake rotors discolored by heat, etc.) that the brakes were in fact used.

It may be that there were a few genuine throttle malfunctions which, once reported, brought all the "accidentally stepped on the gas pedal" accidents out of the woodwork.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#28

Post by thaumaturgy »

workingsmart wrote: post #18
maukdaddy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the WSJ would try to cover up something for Toyota you're an idiot. This isn't some second-class blog we're talking about - it's WSJ.

I'm new to hackernews and I thought maybe you people were as respectful as your mission statement suggests. This is Ad-hominem.

It's not ad-hominem, because he didn't say you were wrong because you're an idiot; he said you're an idiot because you're wrong. ;-)

Conspiracy theories aren't very popular here, unless they involve those pesky climate scientists.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#29

Post by ianium »

"An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation."

Gotta love how a scientific study by an impartial 3rd party never gets in the way of the legal balance of probabilities and a jury of average Americans.

Re: Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents

#30

Post by ianium »

"An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation."

Gotta love how a scientific study by an impartial 3rd party never gets in the way of the legal balance of probabilities and a jury of average Americans.

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