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We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

theguardian.com

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Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#161

Post by amelius »

hnlmorg wrote: post #151
amelius wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why we need universities and government agencies to work on federated protocols, just like they did with email in the old days.

The SMTP equivalent for Facebook and Google is HTTP which is a federated protocol. With email anyone can store the content on a centralised server in any format they want. Be that inside an open source RDBMS like MySQL or PostgreSQL, or a flat text file like Postfix defaults, or a proprietary format like Microsoft Exchange does. And the same is true for the services that Facebook and Google offer. The issue here isn'…

Yes, I agree that content silos are a problem.

But with IPFS, [1], (which is a federated protocol) you can "host" a HTML file or video or any content without any difficulty yourself.

I'm not sure if it would be suitable for the functionality in Facebook though (sharing stuff with friends only), sending messages, so that's part of the reason why we need more research.

The network effect of Facebook can be mitigated by introducing laws that open up competition, like the telecommunications acts, which opened up the market for telephony.

[1] https://ipfs.io/

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#162

Post by maus42 »

One fascinating question is which country should be responsible for nationalizing them. According to the Snowden leaks, the US government is already more than happy to cooperate with FB and Google and alike to spy on non-US citizens; handing the private data to the US government bureaucracy appears to be not much of an improvement from a point of view of an EU citizen

Maybe these megaliths should be split according to the national boundaries, not unlike how the AT&T / Bell System was structured as a combination regional telephone companies.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#163

Post by gaius »

smcl wrote: post #140
gaius wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Graun is ideologically committed to nationalising all the things . It would be noteworthy if they ever called for anything to remain private, let alone be privatised. Having said that there's a decent case for Google being broken up.

That just isn't true at all

I guess you have some links to pro-privatisation articles in the Graun then?

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#164

Post by kleborp »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #87
bem94 wrote: post #18

I think a lot of the "oh my gosh nationalisation is such an awful idea" / "not in my free society" comments are missing the point. I too believe nationalisation is a bad idea in this case , but given the enormous reaction it would bring, can you imagine how awful the situation appears to be from the authors (any many other non-tech-bubble) peoples perspective to even contemplate such a thing? Let alone write an opini…

Things are awful because someone wrote an opinion piece in the newspaper? I heartily disagree that anyone should "detect a consensus" from leftists preaching expropriation. That's just an ordinary activity for them. Nick Srnicek may be shouting a bit louder than most from his pulpit in The Guardian, but that has as little to do with truth as his article has to do with reason. Google, Facebook, and Amazon are just fas…

He did briefly touch on how Monsanto was using similar practices in the agriculture business. I think most readers can make the implied connection there.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#165

Post by 659087 »

Asdfbla wrote: post #112
hnlmorg wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I'd be more worried about nation states having access to the information held on Facebook and Google than I would private corporations.

They can force Facebook etc. to hand over the data anyway, so it does not seem like much would change in terms of the threat posed by governments.

I doubt any forcing is involved. These companies are willing participants in government surveillance.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#166

Post by 659087 »

Veratyr wrote: post #2

I totally agree that Google, Facebook and Amazon have too much power and too little accountability. However they're all global companies and as bad as they are, I trust all of them more than I trust the US government (I am not American). Can you even imagine how their business would work when these are state entities? You're no longer buying ad placements from a marketing company, you're buying them from the US gover…

> All that information on people all over the world is now in the hands of the US government. The very thought of this terrifies me.

I hate to tell you this, but that barn door was already left open a long time ago.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#167

Post by 659087 »

tzury wrote: post #115

"We need" - Who are WE ? As far as I know, Google and Facebook helped and helping people in places where almost everything is nationalized - by providing alternative to local gov-controlled media by making the information and data available to anyone with internet connection. As far as I know, users are sharing and storing their data and trusting those organizations, rather than their governments. The problem starts…

> The internet is good as is, and improved every day, and will continue improving

You consider mass centralization and being almost exclusively under the control of a few massive companies an "improvement"?

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#168

Post by jpttsn »

majewsky wrote: post #155
jpttsn wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think we should have regulated AltaVista and MySpace as utilities, way back when? If so, what would this have done to Facebook and Google's prospects? If not, what makes something a utility?

There's not a clear boundary, but it's basically the same as when electric power turned from something-only-a-few-rich-could-afford to a utility. At some point, electric power was important enough that it was deemed necessary to impose tight regulation that ensures its availability under fair prices to all citizens (which is what being a utility means to me).

That analogy makes sense. So the discussion should be around what makes Facebook as important as e.g. electric power.

Personally, I think Facebook is more like a lottery or a tabloid than it is like electric power. Citizens are fine, nay, better off without it.

Most arguments e.g. ITT fail to convince me on the critical-ness of Facebook/Google. Instead, the possible harm they cause is brought forward. That's a serious issue, but I don't think it has bearing on the utility analogy.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#169

Post by dsfyu404ed »

pdkl95 wrote: post #133
Veratyr wrote: post #2

I totally agree that Google, Facebook and Amazon have too much power and too little accountability. However they're all global companies and as bad as they are, I trust all of them more than I trust the US government (I am not American). Can you even imagine how their business would work when these are state entities? You're no longer buying ad placements from a marketing company, you're buying them from the US gover…

> I trust all of them more than I trust the US government Governments don't deserve your trust. The same goes for business. Trusting either is is a terrible idea, because power corrupts wherever it accumulates. While public and private use power in different ways, they are both a serious threat when they are allowed to act without regular check on their power . The solution isn't to pick sides. Power needs to be dilu…

>Trusting either is is a terrible idea, because power corrupts wherever it accumulates.

Concentrated power is also concentrated responsibility.

It's the lack of individual power for any one member that makes groups (governments, companies, political organizations, etc) untrustworthy. When nobody feels like they have enough individual power to do what they consider right they also do not feel responsible for doing wrong. They're just doing their jobs.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#170

Post by rayiner »

amelius wrote: post #138
olau wrote: post #17

Actually, I think behind the nationalisation idea, which doesn't seem workable given the circumstances, there's an interesting thought: these companies are sitting on basic infrastructure so instead of treating them like other companies, perhaps we should treat them like utilities. Note that this piece appears in The Guardian. I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm of the impression that in many European countr…

A simple solution is to treat these companies as telcos. We could learn something from history. See e.g. the Mann-Elkins Act (1910), [1]. And the telecommunications acts, [2], [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann%E2%80%93Elkins_Act [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Act_of_1934 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_Act_of_1996

What we should learn from history is that ICC regulation was crippling (nearly destroying the rail industry in the US: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/a-nation-der...) and the county has been a lot better off since railroads, air freight, airlines, and yes telcos were deregulated.

That is not to say that we can't regulate things we care about (data privacy, competition, etc). But looking with rose-colored lenses at ICC regulation is foolish. It's the worst sort of regulatory regime: where government bureaucrats are in charge of approving/denying the rail ties that go in the ground and how much can be charged for a ride.

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