Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 237 posts

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#151

Post by hnlmorg »

amelius wrote: post #150
hnlmorg wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I'd be more worried about nation states having access to the information held on Facebook and Google than I would private corporations.

That's why we need universities and government agencies to work on federated protocols, just like they did with email in the old days.

The SMTP equivalent for Facebook and Google is HTTP which is a federated protocol. With email anyone can store the content on a centralised server in any format they want. Be that inside an open source RDBMS like MySQL or PostgreSQL, or a flat text file like Postfix defaults, or a proprietary format like Microsoft Exchange does. And the same is true for the services that Facebook and Google offer.

The issue here isn't federated protocols (though that is something we could benefit from in other domains) but rather the dependance on a centralised archives in the cloud. Most people simply don't care or even aren't aware of self hosting solutions. And those that are aware often choose cloud solutions because it's cheaper and/or less hassle than self-hosting. Federated protocols doesn't fix this (just look at how hard it is to set up a mail server compared to running Google Mail).

Plus in the case of Facebook you have network effects where a social network is only as good as the size of the member base.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#152

Post by fetbaffe »

Lets assume it would be possible to nationalize Google, Facebook and Amazon.

But by whom? US government?

So a nation should run a global company in everyone's interest? Everyone as in the entire population of the world?

Why would I as a non-US-person use a US government system?

Should I then as a non-US-person have a say in how the US run these companies?

This does not make sense.

I guess next article from Guardian will be like 'We Need to build a global government'.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#153

Post by enraged_camel »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #87
bem94 wrote: post #18

I think a lot of the "oh my gosh nationalisation is such an awful idea" / "not in my free society" comments are missing the point. I too believe nationalisation is a bad idea in this case , but given the enormous reaction it would bring, can you imagine how awful the situation appears to be from the authors (any many other non-tech-bubble) peoples perspective to even contemplate such a thing? Let alone write an opini…

Things are awful because someone wrote an opinion piece in the newspaper? I heartily disagree that anyone should "detect a consensus" from leftists preaching expropriation. That's just an ordinary activity for them. Nick Srnicek may be shouting a bit louder than most from his pulpit in The Guardian, but that has as little to do with truth as his article has to do with reason. Google, Facebook, and Amazon are just fas…

>>Bread and circuses. This is the circus part.

I think perhaps you should look up what "bread and circus" actually means, because it's not what you think it is.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#154

Post by majewsky »

aneutron wrote: post #145
olau wrote: post #17

Actually, I think behind the nationalisation idea, which doesn't seem workable given the circumstances, there's an interesting thought: these companies are sitting on basic infrastructure so instead of treating them like other companies, perhaps we should treat them like utilities. Note that this piece appears in The Guardian. I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm of the impression that in many European countr…

Good luck with the legal work required to patch up Google's physical infrastructure than spans, literally, worldwide. For example, if it owns a cable (or just wavelengths) that connect Asia to Europe, how would you handle that ? It certainly doesn't comply to US territory regulations. Unless of course I'm mistaken which is very likely.

An undersea cable will have to comply with the regulations of the connected countries. A regulator can just come and disconnect the part that runs through their jurisdiction if laws are broken.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#155

Post by majewsky »

jpttsn wrote: post #68
olau wrote: post #17

Actually, I think behind the nationalisation idea, which doesn't seem workable given the circumstances, there's an interesting thought: these companies are sitting on basic infrastructure so instead of treating them like other companies, perhaps we should treat them like utilities. Note that this piece appears in The Guardian. I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm of the impression that in many European countr…

Do you think we should have regulated AltaVista and MySpace as utilities, way back when? If so, what would this have done to Facebook and Google's prospects? If not, what makes something a utility?

There's not a clear boundary, but it's basically the same as when electric power turned from something-only-a-few-rich-could-afford to a utility. At some point, electric power was important enough that it was deemed necessary to impose tight regulation that ensures its availability under fair prices to all citizens (which is what being a utility means to me).

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#156

Post by majewsky »

hnlmorg wrote: post #123
Asdfbla wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can force Facebook etc. to hand over the data anyway, so it does not seem like much would change in terms of the threat posed by governments.

True, but I'd rather that process happen publically rather than in secret (as would be the default if the Facebook and Google were nationalised). Not that I'm implying there isn't already secret requests for data (if PRISM is to be believed) but at least with the aforementioned being privately owned there is some chance that unlawful / unjust requests for information can be challenged.

> I'd rather that process happen publically rather than in secret (as would be the default if the Facebook and Google were nationalised).

You're making it appear as through National Security Letters were public, which they very much are not.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#157

Post by majewsky »

dragonwriter wrote: post #84
panic wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google and Facebook were nationalized, why would they need to sell ads?

The same reason the postal service does. They still have to pay the bills.

I could see Facebook and Google move to a subscription-style model. People would easily pay, say, 3$ per month for Facebook and 5$ per month for Google if it was the only option. (Prices should be lower in less developed regions, of course.)

Once freed from the prime directive of collecting increasing amounts of data to improve ad tracking, operating and development costs should be much lower than they are now, too.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#158

Post by noir_lord »

SolarNet wrote: post #60
bem94 wrote: post #18

I think a lot of the "oh my gosh nationalisation is such an awful idea" / "not in my free society" comments are missing the point. I too believe nationalisation is a bad idea in this case , but given the enormous reaction it would bring, can you imagine how awful the situation appears to be from the authors (any many other non-tech-bubble) peoples perspective to even contemplate such a thing? Let alone write an opini…

I agree to an extent, however I think this is just a part of it. The other part is that these companies are these mega corporations that have more money and power than many countries and they aren't accountable to the people but to their owners. And these are the companies that are going to end up inventing stuff like generalized AI. I don't agree with nationalizing them, but I also don't agree with letting them run…

I saw a comment years ago and I dearly wish I'd saved it.

Paraphrased it was "large corporation shit on the floor. Of course it did, that's basically their job, the job of government is to supply the rolled up newspaper and occasionally the mop".

It made me laugh in its succinctness.

Corporations don't exist in isolation, they are part of society and should be answerable to that society, the all regulation is bad thing is as annoying as all regulation is good.

In a democracy fundamentally the corporation should answer to the people.

This isn't new, Standard oil is a good example from a century ago.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#159

Post by throw2016 »

Is this really leftism or a provocation? Either way it backfires by playing right into the simplistic right narrative of theft and jealousy and makes the left look like clueless out of touch jokers with no solutions for innovation and a weakness for ill thought sledge hammer constraints. It's a disgrace.

The bigger problem is significant gains in western democracy and liberalism are being watered down with serious issues around regulatory capture, surveillance and accountability growing. Or current systems, laws and legislation would have been dealing with some of the privacy and market problems caused by Google, Facebook and Amazon.

The EU is trying but it's not in the US interest to interfere with the growth of these companies for many reasons from surveillance to market domination so they will not meet legislation here.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#160

Post by noir_lord »

peoplewindow wrote: post #89
olau wrote: post #17

Actually, I think behind the nationalisation idea, which doesn't seem workable given the circumstances, there's an interesting thought: these companies are sitting on basic infrastructure so instead of treating them like other companies, perhaps we should treat them like utilities. Note that this piece appears in The Guardian. I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm of the impression that in many European countr…

The Guardian is based in the UK where energy, water, transport and communication are all handled by the private sector.

Sort of.

The underlying infrastructure is quasi-nationalised in many cases and the private companies sit on top.

For an example look at the big six (largest electricity providers) they all buy electricity from the same place at the effectively the same price, they don't even maintain large parts of their own infrastructure.

The way it was privatised was the worst of all options.

Same with the railways. The companies Joe public interact with don't own the track etc.

It's a truly British solution, what's the worst way? Let's do that.

Post reply on HN